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I can provide you with my test map : 1000 m long and one regular Panther facing a Sherman. I did another test today with more winds. after 10 battles the Panther had 3 first shot/hit the Sherman 1 I don't know if you had the time to read the tables provided in the link above, but i can explain you how i did my test. according to tables, when the distance is already known by the gunner : on range at 1000 m they have 100 % hit on practice 97 % if i remember well They say, of course, that in combat the first hit rate is much lower, but that an average gunner can hit with that accuracy after watching the result of it's first shot. So i would expect much lower first hit, and most of the time 2 or 3 shots to hit the target. In my two tests the Panther had first hit 6 times on 20 "battles" it took 2 rounds 10 times and 3 rounds 4 times for the Sherman 75 : 1 time on 20 first shot/hit 13 times it took 2 shots 5 times 3 shots 1 time 4 shots so the Panther can achieve : first hit 30 % of the time 2 rounds for a hit 50 % 3 rounds 20 % Sherman : first hit 5 % two rounds 65 % 3 rounds 25 % 4 rounds 5 % of course, it would take a lot of time and test to have real stats, but i think this gives an idea of what we can expect. I must say that 6 times the Sherman was shooting, missing and was destroyed before hitting the target so it think that we can expect more 3 shots for a hit. I think, according to the tables, that we have a much lower first hit probability for the Panther : 30 % in "combat" in the game against 100 range/ practice. and most of the time it takes 2 rounds for the average gunner to hit the target, so it seems realistic. this should be lower if the target is moving and if there is cover and in game conditions. so what do you think of those results ? May i ask you a few other questions ? - The maps we use are sometimes small and tank fighting is close, 400 m or less. I think that at that distance we should see more first hit, what do you think ? Maybe it's because of short range and small maps that we perceive that there is too much first hit ? I used to play the Close Combat game and the maps were something like 300/ 400m and if i remember well, there was also many first hits. - I think that hit probability on the move for WWII tanks should be almost zero, did you had the opportunity to shoot on the move and was it accurate ? - I tried a test with strong wind coming from the flank. i did not see much difference in the game but did not test enough for conclusion. So, does the wind have a big influence when shooting at 1000 m ? I don't know if, in the game, rain, fog, wind affect much accuracy or not, and also if panicking crews have a much lower accuracy. Just like for destroyed optics, i think that it would be nice to have more infos. If you want to test for yourself i can give you my map or make a bigger for you. In fact it's quiet easy in the editor to have a flat test map, that's another story to make a realistic map, and i must say that i'm not good in this. I also think that testing is sometime interresting but too much test is very boring.

With the details i have found i tried a quick test : Sherman 75 / Panther at about 1000 m Crews regular i run the test 10 times it took about 30 sec for the Panther to spot less for the Sherman first number is battle number second the number of shots to hit target for Panther and then Sherman 1 1 2 2 2 2 3 3 2 4 1 3 5 2 2 6 1 2 7 3 2 8 2 destroyed after 1 missing shot 9 3 3 10 2 3 so, the Panther hit the target at first shot 3 times, the Sherman never. Of course, it would take a lot of more testing to have real stats but i think that we can have an idea of what we can expect in the game. The Panther has an advantage over Sherman at that distance. In practice,according to the test tables, we could expect 100 % hit, much less in combat conditions. this happened 3 times in the "battle" test. Two things to notice : Once the range is found, all shots went to target. During battle 6 the Panther was unable to spot the Sherman after 5 mn getting hits after hits. So i decided to unbutton the Tank commander. He spotted immediately and destroy the Sherman in 1 shot. What is strange is that is optics were very damaged (red status) and it did not affect the precision of the shot. It would be nice if we could have precision from developers about this : how does the destruction of optics affect targeting and spotting. I'm not asking for precise statistics, but it sometimes seems that the destruction of optics does not affect targeting, but only spotting.

Of course i do not expect that in combat. I've been playing many wargames and i've been reading enough books to know that to many things comes in when you try to make stats about hit probability. I have found an interresting link were they detail the accuracy of the KwK42 L/70 and the way german tested it : http://www.oocities.org/desertfox1891/pzpanther/pzpanther-Charakteristics.html In short they say that it's a very accurate gun capable of first round hits at range exceeding 1000 m On a target of 2m x 2.5 m you will notice that even in practice, up to 1000 m for an average gunner, the expected % of hit is almost 100 % "Tables are based on the assumptions that the actual range to the target has been correctly determined and that the distribution of hits is centered on the aiming point. " "These accuracy tables do not reflect the actual probability of hitting a target under battlefield conditions. Due to errors in estimating the range and many other factors, the probability of a first round hit was much lower than shown in these tables. However, the average, calm gunner, after sensing the tracer from the first round, could achieve the accuracy shown as the Practice data." BadgerDog said the probability were much lower according to his experience. I think it's interresting to find a reason, and the opinion of an experimented gunner should matter. so, the gun can achieve first round hit at 1000 m The practice accuracy at that range is almost 100 % with APCBC PzGr 39/42 We cannot estimate the combat accuracy because too many factors get in " the probability is much lower" How much i don't know. But even if we divide by 2 this means that in combat, an average gunner at 1000 m will have almost 50 % chances of hitting on the first round. In the game, because of the bocage terrain, we can estimate that the distance is much shorter than 1000 m. So is it so irrealistic to have first shot/hit ? We can also say that at under 1000 m it seems that Sherman, T34 85, firefly can have good results. I had the occasion to talk with Steve about the details of the armor model in CMBN (Shot traps, armor quality etc...). He said that CMBN was much more detailed than CMX 1 and that they put a lot of attention, research and time on the ballistic and armor modelling. So i trust him about this. As a wargamer, i'm much more interrested in tactic than statistics. We all know that stats just give you an idea of what may happen, but the result may vary a lot. I'have seen tanks hit with a first shot and, sometimes at shorter distance, tanks missing 2 or 3 times. When i first played, i was astonished by the accuracy on the move. this was corrected. In CMX1, i'have seen hits at first shots, but i don't know if there are more in CMBN. I think that if Steve used the same datas, with more details, we should have something almost the same.

here are the sources given for the article in trucks and tanks review about the Tiger II and gun stats. Koch (F.) deutsche flugabwehremaschinengewehr une ihre lafetten laufwerke und ketten deutscher kampfpanzer funkgerate in gepanzerten fahrzeugen der wermacht Motoren und getribe deutscher panzer Fleischer (W.) die deutschen kampfwagen kanonen Jentz (T.) & Boyle (H.) Germany's Tiger tanks Deneke (J.) Tamanstriche des deutschen heeres 1914 bis heute Schneider (W.) Tiger in combat

If we have good probabilities of hitting a target at first shot in the game i think that's because developpers found good historical sources to make the game engine. If you take a look at the german estimation, under 500 m both in exercise and combat, the hit on the first shot is high (if the hit probability is estimated to 100 % they expect that almost each shot will hit the target) I don't know if 500 m or less is close for a tank but from the stats that i have, allied and german tanks are accurate at those distances. For longer distance (more than 1000 m) i think that the range finding method is certainly right. It would be interresting to compare with cmx 1. If i remember well, with each shot,at long distance, the probability was increasing to reach the target and i think it's the same in CMX 2. At short distance i'm not sure that there is much difference and if i remember well tanks were also accurate in CMX 1. I also lost tanks with a single shot (i remember well loosing a Tiger II from a single shot of a firefly and i used to be very cautious when i had to face them) Now, even in CMBN tanks will miss targets at that distance just like in my exemple with the Pz IV.

here is what they say about the Tiger II with pzgr. 39/41 hit probability at 100 m : exercise : 100 % Combat 100 % at 500 m exercise 100 % combat 100 % at 1000 m exercise 100 % combat 85 % at 1500 m exercise 95 % combat 61 % at 2000 m exercicse 85 % combat 43 % at 2500 m exercise 74 % combat 30 % at 3000 m exercise 61 % combat 23 % with pzgr. 40/43 at 100 to 500 m 100 % both exercice and combat 1000 m 100 % exercise 89 % combat 1500 m 97 % exercise 66 % combat 2000 m 89 % exercise 47 % combat 2500 m 78 % exercise 34 % combat 3000 m 66 % exercise 25 % combat for the size of the estimated target it was something like a 2 m square if i remember well. so they have a probablity of 78 % to hit a target size of 2m at 1500 in exercise for exemple. They also give an average deviation of 260 mm on the vertical and 210 mm in the horizontal for the 88 mm at a distance of 1000 m. They give a lot of sources ( mainly german books) for the article that i can give if some people are interrested.

my main sources are the review "Trucks and Tanks" and "batailles et blindés". 2 review about armor from WW1 to modern tanks. From what they say, even on combat, germans had high probabilities of hitting target. For the allied tanks, they don't give more precision. But i think it was on the best conditions on a fix target. I'm looking for the german stats of the 88 mm were they give the size of target and the hit probability in firing range and combat.

well, that happens when you are doing 2 things in the same time I should have write that he had the medal for the destruction of the Stug and Panther tanks in that action and that he was able to hit a telegraph pole. Interresting that French people have the reputation to be crazy. We may be crazy, but not enough to give a medal for the destruction of a telegraph pole

Always interresting to see how we all have different feelings about the game. I remember that when the game came out, some people were complaining that tanks were totally inaccurate. Here is a real story that i've been reading in a review in 2003 : this was told by a french veteran who was fighting in an M10 TD. His tank was hull down on a hill. Then they recieved 4 shots. One cutting a tree, one damaging the mg, one too short in the front of the tank and one cutting the radio antenna. the tank then went back to cover and the tank commander, made a reco on foot seeing one stug and a panther behind stone walls. He decided to target the muzzle break of each tank at about 650 m and hit them in 2 shots. then he shot 11 shells to destroy them and smoke was coming from the 2 targets. Marcel Maurice, the gunner of Dixmude II said he was able to hit a telegraph pole at 1000 m in Africa (i don't know in how many shots). For this, he had the Croix de guerre medal. It was hard for me to believe but i see no reason why he would have lie so i think the story was true. certainly an exceptionnal gunner.

I found stats in some of my books : For a Stug : at 1200 m 81 % chances of hit at 1600 m 50 % 30 % and less at longer distance Firefly : at 800 m 98 % at 1600 m 69 % at 2000 m 44 % at 2400 m 24 % Panther : at 1200 m 88 % at 1600 m 64 % at 2000 m 41 % T34 85 : at 800 m 98 % at 1600 m 57 % at 2000 m 26 % So i think that in the best conditions, under 800 m chances of hit on a static target are high for most tanks. I also think that it's hard for the player to estimate if a shot should hit the target or not because there are so many details in the game (experience, weather, size of the target etc...) Yesterday i played a few QBs. 4 Panzer IV against Shermans at about 500 m. the panzers in static positions shot 4 times, only one hit without destroying the Shermans. One Sherman, while moving, had a first shot hit and destroyed one panzer (all crews were regular). Second battle, 2 shermans charging in the open against one Panther. Shermans missed 2 times, one on the ground one too high, while moving. Static Panther destroyed both with one shot each (distance about 400 m). I think that saying one shot= one hit is not correct and i've seen many missed in the game + a tank when is hit is not always destroyed. I trust BFC when they say that they have made a serious historical research, even if i think they should lower the accuracy on the move again, i think they are right. For me, most frustrating things in the game are : - Hmg firepower (suppression and volume of fire). - Smgs shooting at too long distance (298 m), 100/50 m should be more reasonable. - Pistols too accurate at 100 m + (under 50m or less should be better i think) - accuracy of sniper against tank commanders and in general ( i think that developers are looking at this) and maybe making them harder to spot than regular infantry - spotters of AT and snipers team shooting and revealing the position with in general bad results for the team - crews acting like infantry when the vehicle is destroyed. I have been reading that they follow the au plan but maybe they should loose the plan when the vehicle is destroyed and have the moral more affected when the vehicle is destroyed, staying away from the enemy. Those things can be modified, i hope, and i think this would improve the game experience.

to Vark : Thanks for your very interesting testing : (i don't have CMX1 games on my computer since cmsf so i couldn't do comparison) First i notice the range, you say casualties at 1600 m while in cmbn you only spot at 1500 and start to shoot at 1200 for US hmgs and 800 900 m for germans. I remember that in CMBB it was difficult to attack a position defended by hmgs. You had to use strong support and small jumps to get closer to the enemy. you said infantry was stopped at 800 m after 30mn of fight. In my exemple it took 11mn to get at 100 m of the bunker and no squad was broken. I think it's a huge difference for two games simulating the same situation. To Wreck : totally agree with your idea of warrior and elite settings. Just like in flight simulation, the level of realism, in our case, suppression,or the reaction of men under fire could be adjusted. This would allow new players to adapt to the game and then to go to harder levels. I also suggest that for elite or iron level you don't get as much info that we have now. For infantry you would not be able to know if it's an HQ, an arty spotter, or just a reco team.

Ok, i promise i will never ever try to do stupid bad jokes on this forum. even if we can have interresting discussion about artillery. To JasonC : I totally agree with you when you say that infantry is to fire resistent. I also agree when you say that maybe there are too much super soldiers on the game that may give unrealistic results. Like in the old CMBO manual i think that crack and elite troops should be very rare. I also understand that new player may have problems with the game. Now does it mean that we should sacrifice too much realism ? I have been reading threads about indestructible Tiger or Panther tanks. I think that we would not like developers to reduce the armor of a Tiger to make it more easy to destroy. If i remember well, in Cmbo, mgs had the same problem and in Cmbb it was much more difficult to attack hmg and infantry was more suppressed. Now it seems that we agree that something should be change. I did this test just because : I think that 5 or 7 secondes between each burst is too long and frustrating when you are defending and the enemy is getting closer, or when you attack to suppress ennemy positions. I think that infantry is not suppressed enough and hmgs are not enough efficient in the game. I would be very satisfied with the game if : Hmgs were more efficient Pistols less precise at more than 50 m Smgs would not shoot at almost 300 m but at 100 m or less. Snipers would be more precise against vehicules crews and more difficult to spot. Spotter of small AT and snipers team would not shoot at too long distance and reveal the position to the enemy. I'm not asking for new features in the game but tweaks that i think would make the game more realistic. Of course, i may be wrong and what i'm asking is based on the feelings i have when i play. When i see an mp40 spotter of a sniper team shooting at 275 m on infantry and getting the team spotted and killed i think this was just a waste of ammo and wrong behaviour of the spotter. I take again the exemple of fire on the move for tanks. Bfc team changed this and the game is much better and less frustrating. Well, i think they should have lower the precision on the move a little bit more. I had one Stug hidden under trees waiting for Sherman tanks. The first one comes and it's destroyed. Then a Second one, who spots first while on the move at high speed, and destroy my Stug with is first shot. And it was green crew ! Very frustrating. But maybe i was just unlucky ...

In fact the career on the battlefield of the Gustav was only 13 days in Sebastopol and only for 48 shots. One shell destroyed an ammunition depot under water and went through 20 m of water and 30 m of chalk to explode in the depot. I have been reading that the cost was 7 millions Reichsmarks about 59 Panther tanks (117 000 Reichsmarks one) or 23 Tiger I.

Very poor choice. All WW 2 studies shows that the only way to attack fortification is the 800 mm Dora or Gustav with at least the 7 tons shell. Everything else is useless. That's why i'm asking Bfc to put it in the game right now if we want to have a correct simulation of WW combat.

I took the WW1 exemple just to show that sustained fire was possible. I'm not asking for this in the game of course. JasonC is saying the things much bettre than i am in his post. The units during the charge were not affected by losses. One german unit even destroyed on bunker, and that was not with fanatics veterans. Like it is said in the Armchair general vidéo : to win you must use good tactics and real life tactics should work in the game. If you had to attack a position of bunkers would you charge in the open or use arty, smoke, tanks etc.. To support your attack ? I think that bad tactics should be punished in the game by very bad results. In this case just sending infantry is enough to take the position. That made me think that something was wrong. I don't want anything to be in this simulation but i would like to have convincing results and i don't care if the rate of fire is too low or not compare to reality. If troops are not suppressed enough we can think that there is not enough incoming fire to pin them down. What is strange is that i had a squad who took 2 casulaties inflicted by pistols (Tank crew) they were pin down and i had problems to make them return fire. Here we have 5 Hmgs and the men keep on moving like noting (with veteran HMG i had not many more casualties but only one squad panicked). I'm only asking for longer burst at a longer range = more suppression and open terrain very hard to cross. For what is about the game engine, i tested in hotseat but i play RT. 1 Burst by second is possible and i had no problems playing in RT.

During WW British Army used vickers to avoid a counter attack of german infantry. 10 machine guns shot during 12 hours without pause except for ammo and changing the cooling water and changing the barrel every hour. They shot a little less than 1 million cartridges and only two mgs had mechanical problems. No German soldier was able to pass on the zone defended by the Hmg. I'm not expecting HMG42 to shoot 1200 rmp. I'm posting because : I have seen real life movies of combat in Normandy and East front that show Hmgs shooting long bursts (2 3 seconds) without pause. I don't think that the result of my test are realistic. The questions are : - do you think that an infantry company can move on open ground, without cover and without stopping in front of 5 hmgs in bunker and stop at less than 100 m of the german positions ? (I played my test in hotseat and gave only one moving order to the infantry company in all my tests) -Do you think that it would take 7 seconds or more between each burst in real life when ennemy is attacking in open ground ? - do you think that bursts should be limited to 10 cartridges ? I think this behaviour is more for Lmgs that you find in german squads or the bar or bren for the allied. The game allows higher rate of fire but only at less than 100 m (1 burst/second). So my opinion is that if this rate of fire was applied at longer range (800 m for exemple) we would have a better simulation of Hmgs. Lmgs would keep the same rate of fire, which is correct compare to German field manual. For spotting : In my exemple the infantry is on the open and the hmgs open fire between 1200 to 850 m. At that distance they don't target a man but shoot in the mass of infantry. And Hmg 34/42 had optics. For dispersion of bullets : in real life movies you can see the barrel of the hmg42 going right and left during the 4 seconds burst. the gunner is not watching were the bullets are going. (the scene was cut and i don't know if the burst was longer). How many bullets did he shoot in 4 seconds ? I have seen the same thing with japanese french american and british Hmgs in those movies. much longer burst than we see in the game. Last question : don't you think that there is not enough difference in the rate of fire between Hmgs and lmgs ? During my testing, at the same distance, you can expect the same number of bursts and bullets from an hmg42 and a lmg 42.

Well, you are right, but i think that over 100m precision and suppression is too high. During playing i had a experiences were a squad is shot by pistols, sometimes 1 man at 100 m or more and had 1 or 2 guys down got suppressed and unable to return fire. Or the exemple with the tank commander of a Panzer IV shot at more than 100m in his turret by a pistol. If you compare to snipers that just can't hit a tank commander at 300 m or less.

I found in a few articles that for the MP 40 the max range was 200 m but effective range is 100 m. For the thompson the range was about 50 m. For the MAT 49 50 to 100 m. For the MP5 100 m For the PPSh-41 it seems about 200 m. For the sten about 50 m. In the game i'have seen shots at more than 200 M. I think that they should open at 100m or less except maybe for saturation fire when the player gives the order to target a building or area target. For pistols i think that an effective range of 50 m is the max. for soldiers who are not very well trained. So, very frustrating to have a squad pinned down at 100 m + by one or two guys with pistols. I also think that sniper should get some change so that spotting one sniper should be much harder than regular infantry.

In CMSF infantry could be posted at 1800 m. I had a sniper who shot a syrian at that distance when i did sniper testing. In cmbn binoculars give you about 500 m advantage. Lmg without optics spot less than 1000 m and hq with binoculars 1500 m. for area target : i tested it by shooting behind the infantry. The rate of fire is the same and you don't get better results. If a HMG has a theoric rate of fire of 1200 1600 rpm in the game we can have in average 12 bursts of 7 to 10 rounds in 1 mn = 120 rpm. This means that Hmg are limited to 10 % of their capabilities. At first i thought it was a game engine limitation but i played a scenario were a hmg 42 was on the flank of a group. At less than 100 m the gunner started to shot about 1 burst by second at the group was destroyed in a few seconds. So i think the game can allow a higher fire rate for Hmgs. We don't have hmgs but lmg with more men and ammos. The effective range of the weapons can be up to 1000m and the range about 2000 m for Hmg. At that distance i guess that they don't target but just fire in the direction of the ennemy at the level of the belly of the soldiers. I still think that running in front of 5 hmgs and even one during 1000 m without cover smoke or support in the best conditions is a suicide.

I'm giving you the results of a litlle sniper test : map 2100 m, 1 veteran sniper against one platoon, about11mn battle infantry spotted at 1500 m first shot at 800 m 15 shots by sniper 5 loss for infantry. at 270 m the mp40 guy started to open fire and my sniper detected, wounded and pin down. only 30 % hit. on immobile infantry at 300 m 20 mn 21 kia and 16 wia in 20 mn 60 shots for the sniper. snipers, like in cmsf shoot at medics in priority. on vehicule : no result. Sniper can't hit a tank commander or infantry in half track. He was eliminated in less than 2 mn at about 300 m. I think that in general in the game sniper should really be harder to spot. There is a great difference in cmbn compare to cmx1 game concerning tank commanders. In cmx1 i used to button up my tanks when close to infantry by fear of snipers and that's not the case in the game but i have been reading that it was a bug and that BFC was looking at it. Why is the mp40 shooting at 270 m ? I think it's a waste of ammo and that it reveals the position to the ennemy and the result is a dead team. I have no experience with mp 40 but i had the occasion to shot with the french mat49, a 9mm mp, when in was in the army. i doubt that the weapon would be efficient at that distance. I had the opportunity to talk to a someone who used this weapon during the war in Algeria and he said that this was not a precise weapon at long distance and i guess it's the same with mp in the game. It's a problem for small teams, Snipers, AT team etc... and that was the case in cmsf too. the mp guy shoot at infantry at too long distance, revealing the position and you can say goodbye to your team. I also think that pistols are to accurate in the game at 100 m +. Exemples at little more than 100 m : US tank crew, 3 shots and 2 guys down for the german and a squad pinned down. At 120 m two crew member of a panzer iv hit by a pistol of a US tank crew (compare to snipers). It would be nice also if tank crews did not react as infantry. They attack like regular infantry when the vehicle is destroyed and i think they should stay in more defensive position and that they should be more demoralized when their vehicules are hit. Small details, but sometimes very frustrating when playing

I've been reading threads about indirect fire with hmg and the comparison of allied and germand infantry and i wanted to show the results of a test i did a few weeks ago. The test map is 250m X 2100m. 5 Hmg in bunker against on company of 125 men all regular with average moral and motivation and command. Best conditions, no wind clear weather. Spotting : Bunker are spotted at 2100 m by infantry. Hmg spot at about 1500 m for allied and german hmg. For Lmg 42 they spot at about 1000 m (no binoculars) the Hq spotted at 1300 m Opening of fire : 800m for hmg 750 m for lmg without order. With order hmg 42 open at 850 m and 1200 m for us 30 cal. Rate of fire : Hmg 42 at 800 m 7 sec between each burst of 7 to 10 bullets :49 to 70 rounds mn at 600 m 9 bursts : 63 to 90 shots rpm at 300 m 12 burst : 84 to 120 shots rpm under 300m you can expect 9 to 12 bursts by mn Lmg 42 750 m 5 bursts : 35 to 50 rpm 300 m 10 bursts : 70 to 100 rpm 100 m 10 to 12 bursts mn : 120 rpm US 30 cal 750 m 3 bursts of 4/5 bullets :12 to 15 rpm 550 m 8 bursts : 32 to 40 rpm 300m and less about 10 to 12 bursts mn : 48 to 60 rpm Results on infantry after 11 mn of battle : Hmg 42 :27 kia 25 wia about 42% loss infantry is not stopped by hmg lmg 42 : 12 kia 13 wia 20% loss infantry is not stopped by hmg US 30 cal : 21 kia 20 wia 42 % loss infantry is not stopped by hmg Conclusion : From the German field manual we can see that Germans expected lmg in infantry squads to : shoot with accuracy 50-60 bullets in 8 burst of 5 to 8 rounds in 30 seconds, so 16 bursts mn = 80 to 128 rpm in the game I think the game represents quiet well lmg fire but not Hmg fire. While playing i have noticed that the rate of fire of hmg 42 can be of one burst by second : 360 to 600 rmp ... but only under 100 m. As we can see the rate of fire is linked to distance. My guess is that mg gunner is aiming at each burst. The longer the distance the longer de delay between each burst ( 7 seconds at 800 m). The result is a rate of fire to low. In my tests, infantry ran during 11 mn in front of 5 hmg stopped at 100m of the bunkers without pause. The hmg did not have enough suppression effect to stop them. But it's linked to the low rate of fire : the more incoming bullets = the more suppression. My opinion is that the results for both US and German hmg are not realistic and that Hmg are not well represented in the game. In real life it would be impossible for infantry to run 1200 m in front of hmg like this. We can compare to mortars : they don't target a particular man but a zone. if mortars were like hmg the rate of fire would be very low since at each shot they woud have to correct the fire to hit the target. Hmg should do the same : area fire. In real life movies i'have seen hmg shooting without pause, moving right to left and the gunner was not aiming a particular target. It's a problem when you want to stop infantry in the open when defending and when you need support at long range in the attack. 7 seconds between each burst is too long to pin down ennemy infantry at long range and HMg do not play their role in the game. I'm sorry for this long post, but i think that BFC should really take a look at this. I know that they have a lot of work and that it may be a detail but i think it's important. For exemple, when they modified the accuracy of tanks on the move, it was for me a great improvement in the game and the same with indestructible trees. I'm not asking for more accuracy for hmg but a higher rate of fire : longer bursts (2,3 seconds of firing) and less delay between each burst = more suppression for infantry and infantry pin down. I know that the game cannot simulate everything, and i'm not asking for that but i think that hmg are not well moddeled in the game and that a little change, and that's possible since hmg can have a very high rate of fire in the game at - 100 m, would improve the simulation and the gaming experience.

I have noticed that british assault engineer don't see at night. They have the NV icon but it doesn't seem to work. To be sure, i compared with a company of british fusilier. I made a test scenario. The infantry company could see and fire at Syrians infantry at 200 m. In the same conditions, the assault engineer were blind, like the Syrians. I also noticed that the company commander of the infantry was also blind. The rest of the company had night vision but the company commander could not see Syrians and his own troops. Will there be a patch to correct this ? Will it be possible to have the same modification that we had in CMBN for trees that are resistant to heavy guns. I made a qb with tanks in a forest and noticed that 120 mm shells are still stopped by small trees. I think that trees should be destroyed by 25 mm bursts and bigger guns.

I was playing the Tiger's day scenario today. I have seen very interesting things. I 'am sure that the rate of fire, the time between bursts is totally linked with the distance of the objective. On of my HMG 42 started to shoot at 2 infantry men at less than 80 m. there was less than 1 second between each burst. The amount of suppression is linked to incoming fire and casualties. To take the charging infantry against 4 bunkers exemple. At long distance, the delay between burst is up to 6 seconds. No problem as long as infantry can't return fire. But when they come too close, they can suppress the mg and that means less burst and panic, casualties etc.... I strongly suggest to allow HMG and MMG to switch to 1/2 second delay bursts at far longer range. If possible in CMSF too. I think it's worth the work for it since the problem will appear in every module. If BFC can solve it, think it will never rise again. I'm not asking for ultra realistic features for HMG. We will agree that assaulting a position of HMG should need strong support, smoke etc... If it can be done with wrong tactics, byr just running, i think something is wrong. I believe also that, the more bursts, the more suppression, the more guys will crawl and the situation will be more realistic. Few things bother me in the game : - trees to strong against AP rounds : they are working on it - snipers, like in CMSF the escort team opens fire and shows the position - too accurate tanks on the move - Hmg not efficient enough I really think that there is a solution without the need of new feature. Can they, for exemple limit the fire of the escort team of snipers, less than 100m or target light only sniper shooting, and target every team member. I think it's more a question of the behaviour of the troops than a game engine problem. I really hope they will tweak it.

Well i suspected that there was only one sound for all tanks. Hope they will had more, it was cool to have different sounds for tanks in CMSF. I think it's also the case for small weapons like rifles. If i understand well, if i want to test the loop, i name it "heavy track" and put it in de Z folder. If this works, there are videos of Tiger I and II and a lot of vehicles that i would like to try.

Thanks for your answer Mord. I will try this week end to clean and eq the loops and have a convincing sound. Some parts of the sound are taken very close so you can hear the Maybach engine and the noise of the tracks very well. Quiet impressive i think.