HardRock
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Posts posted by HardRock
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Personally I think the game is over Chazman's head.
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Originally posted by HardRock:
The size of the icon has nothing to do with anything nor anything to do with birds eye view.
It is simply a tool Colored means you can see him. This takes into account other factors. read the manual.
Spotting is not done from birdseye view.
Furthermore you are looking from a naked eye and a graphic simulated one at that. They used magnification for LOF. You don't get that in the game because it's not a first person shooter.
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The size of the icon has nothing to do with anything nor anything to do with birds eye view.
It is simply a tool Colored means you can see him. This takes into account other factors. read the manual.
Spotting is not done from birdseye view.
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So you can't see it with the naked eye. That's not surprising.
Look at some light trees outside sometime. Now look with high powered binoc.
Also scouting experiences not only helps you to spot but adds to your concealment behind such things as brushes etc.
I wonder if everyone has read the spotting rules. If not read them..and then read them again.
The colored icon is what the developer gives you for LOS...not the birds eye graphic view.
The colored or faded icon is simulating a lot of factors than pure los.
and muzzle flash is modeled.
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Did you look through the magnified gunsight..or the commanders binocs?
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True enough. Russian tanks operated in companies of platoons which are half the size of western organization thus a platoon was only 2-3 tanks. A company was 10 tanks...vs 17-22 axis and allied. (Tigers usally 14)
They used hand and flag signals to communicate.
Individual tanks didn't act on their own.
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Don't be stubborn.
For instance if you crest a hill and see one tank and target it then 2 more become visible shooting at you..don't think oh just one more shot then I'll start with the other two. You'll be dead.
Back off the crest..re-evaluate and bring up more support or another plan.
I know the feeling "oh just one or two more shot". Too late.
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Actually you're better off giving the order for turret yourself rather than auto.
Turrets had the thickest armor and a smaller target with a low percent to hit.
WW2 tanks rarely targeted just the turret and certainly didn't trade shots with hull down tanks. It's just poor odds and ammo supply is a factor.
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I've been playing LOS military games for 30 years including miniatures with hard core los rules and never a rule where a single tree..or a tree line..or even a couple in depth block los/lof. In light woods there would be "to hit" modifiers which seems to be what they're doing with the degradation. Also there is muzzle flash that can reveal you though I don't know if thats modeled.Originally posted by Cornfleek:[Righto, good point about the computers and pause button not being available back then. [/sarcasm]
My point was, that Line of Sight in itself is available to you, me and everybody back then. we can see what we can see, and can't see what we can't see. No we can't pause our life, but we can very accurately tell if we can see something or not.
In ToW you get shot through the foliage of three trees, with absolutely no LoS (as in from that position you cannot see what shot you). Trees should block LoS since they should be solid objects. In this game trees look solid, but apparently are translucent objects.
Adding a tool that explains that the AI can see through three trees is useless if it doesn't fix the original problem of translucent trees.
And about the tankers normally not knowing what hit them, it was quite often caused by ambushes, which have been made impossible with the current state of LoS calculations.
Devs, fix the problem, please don't give us a tool that explains how the problem works. [/QB]
The thing is the developer is not using the "draw a string line" to targets and if it hits something its blocked that we are all used to. They are using another method. It may be more realistic..it may not..it may work perfect as is or broken..that I don't know because we don't know whats under the hood. The LOS tool he's coming out with will help one to deduce why.
Most of us are looking for some bushes to hide behind. I was behind a tree..and a couple other trees up front blocked my FPS view. However in almost every case when I went to a top down view with the fire line..it cleared abeit going through edges of branches which is not enough to stop it.
The game uses the colored icons. So if its colored he's going to see and shoot you and you him..although your AI might want to move to a better position not to waste ammo.
There is in real life..at least back in WW2, a fog of war with LOS and spotting or not spotting was a factor...it wasn't a perfect let me drawn a line to every possible position and get an yes or no.
That's probably why they have a scouting value.
Btw..ATG's ambushed. Not tanks except rare occasions. There location was known from other sources.
[ April 30, 2007, 03:27 PM: Message edited by: HardRock ]
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Yeah and Bocage is not trees. It's dense hedge and its thick. I mean talk about thick.....Originally posted by Chazman:"And for umpteenth time...tress never blocked LOS. these are trees in the game, not patches of dense forest 500 meters deep!!"
You're kidding right?
The trees in the game are "tree lines", ever heard of the bocage in Normandy, I guess everyone could see right through that too?
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How about we assume, quite reasonably, that hiding a tank behind bushes (in ambush) pre-supposes that the crew have gone to the trouble of camoflaging it so that it couldn't be seen?Originally posted by BillyBob:</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by HardRock:
But hide your tank behind a bush.I'll see it.Might make spotting from the air a little more difficult;)
Not happening, is it. AI can spot anything, from one side of the map to the other. Relentlessly. Then kill it.
Might as well be playing on a snooker-table for all the good the terrain features are doing as regards cover & concealment.
Will they fix this game-wrecking flaw? Will they hell. </font>
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LOS is NOT available to real men in the field? WTF? As in real men in the field are not able to assess what they see and cannot see if it's hidden? Oh well, who needs an LOS tool anyway, if this tool will just pierce through 3 trees and say, yes, the enemy can see you.Originally posted by Cornfleek:</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by HardRock:
LOS is a sterile wargaming tool not available to real men in the field.
LOS in ToW is a sterile wargaming approximation resulting in see through trees, not available to real men in the field. </font>
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I enjoy the current system, which brings me to my question regarding the implementation of the adjustment to it in the upcoming patch: will it be a wholesale forced change, or will we be able to disable it in the options menu, for those that appreciate the current effort and don't want artificial indicators? </font>Originally posted by flintlock:</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BDHX:
Currently our team is working over a patch to make LOF visible.
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LOL. You need to copy and paste this on every LOS trees complaint.Originally posted by Elvis:Destraex, it sounds like you have the beta only space lobster version. Please exchange at once.
Just kidding.
But to answer your question as best I can, if you are sitting anywhere beside an urban setting and have a window look out of it now. Tell you what I see. I live in a rural town in the mountains with plenty of trees. There is a good sized road that runs near my house about 400m or maybe a little more away. If I look directly tomy left through the trees and brush I can see clearly see every car that drives by. There are 16 trees I can count in the narrow field of vision I am using as an example. If I were a Firefly I would have no problem spotting a Tiger driving down that road. I would be able able to shoot at it but I would expect with reduced hitting ability. If you look at these maps you see invidual trees and bushes so the example is a good one. I think what you (and others) might be expecting are dense woods like the ones modeled in the CM series. If they should or shouldn't have modeled pathches of woods similar to CM is another issue althogether. The point is consider each tree as a single tree not as representation of many more trees. So when you ask at what level you can't see through atree the answer is no level. You cannot hide a tank behind a tree or even 10 trees unless they were to be aligned in an unrealistic way.
The only wargames I've played where you can't shoot through trees is a dense forest when the opponents are on opposite sides of it.
There are no dense forest here folks. You can see through tress and bushes.
But hide your tank behind a bush.I'll see it.Might make spotting from the air a little more difficult;)
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I concur. Several times I swithed to a bazooka. As soon as I give a fire order he puts the Bazooka back and brings out the Thompson.
This must be a bug.
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45 ATs will kill Pz IIIs all the time
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my fav so far - it has a nice vibe to itOriginally posted by CoolColJ:</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by flintlock:
plus the unsharp mask and contrast boost you added gives it a HDR look
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They may actually have a winner here...in time:)
It's unique.....sometimes frustrating..sometimes. just plain cool:)
If its supported which I would expect as they did with IL2 even as recent as the 1946 IL2 package.
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I'm getting hard lockups occassionaly..usually at the near end of a battle. Requires a hard boot.
P4 2.9 gig
1 gig ram
Radeon 9800
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I beginning to see *some* logic here. Target a tank with a colored icon that appears to be blocked and go to birds eye. Sure enough you can't see through some trees and what might appear to even be part of a bldg.LOS is definetely modelled, as is LOF. I've tested it. Infantry out in the open and infantry in dense trees have much different survival rates = ) [/QB]Now go to a top down view and follow the orange fire arrow. Almost always it IS clearing through obstacles and goes through some edges of trees.
As I posted before, trees do not block LOS in real life.
Just as I had checked a lot of LOS I found the orange arrow going through a bldg. However I was not hitting him but he me and he was on a slight hill.
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I signed it. I don't mind reading the whines..and some of the possible legit criticism...but tactics are going to be important with this game so to put them in one place seems like a good idea.
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I haven't looked to close into this LOS complaints yet. But tank vs tank I got the full color icon which means I can see him. At eye level I couldn't actually see it with one tree and bush in the way. I moved the camera up just enough and could see the tank.
However my tank fired and killed him even tho *I* couldn't see it at eye level.
I don't know about all the reports of rows of trees people are saying doesn't obstruct los but I can tell you this from zillions of wargames...tanks can fire through trees. They can fire at each other in the same woods...to a point.It's not like a thick forest 100 meters deep.
Go out an look at some light woods with a few trees and bushes. Picture a large tank silohette. You will see it.
Now getting down at eye level from a purely graphic point of view you might not see it but that doesn't mean the actual tank crew doesn't. You can see through leaves (which block us graphic wise) and even tree trunks are not an obstruction...unless your talking about a bunch in depth.
Whether this is their intention or not I don't know but it may well be. If accurate, they are saying you have a los with a colored icon...I believe they also it might be somewhat degraded in some cases.
But this tank did not need to move foward past the tree line to shoot and kill even though graphically I couldn't see the actual tank unless I moved the camera foward a few feet.
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heh. I have the full game but did try that tutorial. Same result. Trenches were cleaned out before the inf got there. If you rush the inf before getting tanks in position then they just die.
I dunno if thats wrong because tanks will kill inf,especially from the flank.
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Ah that's probably the problem.
I refrain from drag and drop till the squad is so decimated it doesn't matter because it does screw up the leader to squad. although with the shft 1,2,3,4 command you can make new groups.
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What needs to be fixed: My opinion
in Theatre of War
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