Champagne
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Posts posted by Champagne
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I am not certain that this is the correct place for my comments, so excuse me if not.
The " how much snow on the ground? " question for each scenario is IMPORTANT, in my view, for each scenario.
How deep was the snow on the ground at the time and place of the scenario? That could be a tough question to answer.
If I recall my reading correctly, the deep snow on the ground did not occur until January, 1945.
At the beginning of the German offensive on 16 Dec 44, the ground snow was shallow, maybe an inch.
This question should merit some consideration for the sake of historical accuracy.
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I am not certain that this is the correct place for my comments, so excuse me if not.
The " how much snow on the ground? " question for each scenario is IMPORTANT, in my view, for each scenario.
How deep was the snow on the ground at the time and place of the scenario? That could be a tough question to answer.
If I recall my reading correctly, the deep snow on the ground did not occur until January, 1945.
At the beginning of the German offensive on 16 Dec 44, the ground snow was shallow, maybe an inch.
This question should merit some consideration for the sake of historical accuracy.
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Another GREAT classic !
Thanks very much for this one.
This scenario really shows how the Tiger I was getting obsolete by this phase of the War in the East.
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I completed this scenario vs AI as the German.
Wonderful experience. Thanks so much for this effort. This scenario is going to be one of the classics, for sure.
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This looks GREAT !
I actually met a Veteran of the 78th Sturm Division when I was stationed in Germany during my Army career.
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I also notice a low Panzerfaust count for the Panzergrenadiers in this fine campaign, Blunting the Spear.
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For solitaire play against the AI:
Too difficult? Too easy?
What is the word on the street about the Campaigns?
Thanks.
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This is patently not true. Many german platoon HQs have no radio. Almost no Italian HQs have radios.
Abstracted wire comms.
Field telephones were all over the WW2 battlefields, so, this must be the answer.
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There are quite a few large maps for long range engagements. Try Studienka. I have got a Panther that has taken on a couple T34s and ISU 152s. It is a little banged up but the opposition is flaming wrecks. The engagement range for this particular unit has been between 800 and 900 meters. I am lucky the fighting position is slightly higher so I expect I am getting some additional protection from the angle. Maybe not much, but that Panther is still alive and the enemy isn't.
There are many variables, all realistic, and all contribute to make RT something that we are lucky to have to add to our education and fun.
I'm very thankful for Battlefront. I'm also thankful for the great input into this thread. I have not contributed much to the thread, so, that's why I thank those who have.
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Hi guys
I just checked out Red Thunder and though it looks like a nice expansion. Well expansion my ass.. this thing costs 55$?
I mean I have checked out Combat Mission Shock Force before and judging by the content, nothing impressive or new has been added to justify that price?
Is the game worth the money?
It is definitely worth the money.
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I own every Battlefront CM product, except for the Shock Force modules. I plan to keep buying these great conflict simulations.
Great work, Battlefront. Thanks.
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Good points, JasonC and Mr. X. All very good points, especially the points about how the Germans were winning with the weak tanks and losing with the better tanks. And, of course, "soft factors" are just as important as the hard data like armor specs.
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Not surprising if you played the game for 20 years. I still fondly remember boardgames I played 40-50 years ago even though I might have played them only once or twice.
Michael
On second thought, I played Squad Leader and all its progeny, including the Advanced Squad Leader modules, from 1982 to when CMBO became available. That's about 18 years.
That's why RT can't help but challenge my old impressions of east front combat that I gleaned from so many years of ASL.
Incidentally, although I sold all of my ASL and Sqd Leader stuff years ago, Advanced Squad Leader itself is doing very well as a game. The new ASL modules still sell and players still play. I'm not going back to it, but, ASL is still very popular.
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One thing I find constantly amazes me is when people make claims like "my Panther was knocked out by a T-34-85 in XXX scenario and that just shouldn't happen because the Panther is oh so much better than the T-34"... and then you try the scenario yourself and it turns out it's like 50 T-34's versus 5 Panthers and one of them got knocked out while all the T-34's got knocked out...
Not saying that anyone is claiming that in this thread, but it does pop up every now and then.
That's funny, because people do sometimes post such things.
What to make of it? The person posting such inquiries must be willing to learn, and must have an open mind. New research and new analysis will always necessitate new conclusions in any and every field of learning.
I'm here to learn and to have an open mind. Yes, I've been playing hobby-oriented conflict simulations since 1973. Yes, my first east front tactical game was Panzerblitz. I played Squad Leader, Cross of Iron, GI: Anvil of Victory and Advanced Squad Leader from 1985 to 2000. I earlier claimed 20 years of play, but, it's only 15 years. Still, that's a long time, and, those impressions and memories of the "feel" of play are still in my mind.
So, an open mind and desire to learn are important traits for me now, as, we have new data and research -- and a very detailed simulation in CMRT.
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Just played the scenario and I lost 2 panthers and 1 Tiger.
The tiger was my own fault since I moved it very far up on the left flank thinking that "well, they might try to sneak an armored car up there or something" and when it got there, the russians charged about 7 T-34-85's up at the same time...
Needless to say he stood no chance against them at almost point blank range.
The two panthers were lost to 1 penetration of the weapon mount (having had 3 riccochets there earlier) and the other had a partial penetration of the turret front that resulted in a catastrophic explosion...
I certainly feel that the germans can hold their own as long as you don't push in too close.
I think people might have been spoiled with the western front where panthers and tigers were nigh-invincible even at point blank ranges.
Welcome to the russian front gentlemen
Thanks, Oddball, I appreciate your time and effort in playing and posting. This is a good scenario, and, definitely one of the best in the RT package.
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i say this again , panther tanks dont hasto worry ower 500 m , if T34/85 dont hit lover front armo or turret neck. only G panther have poor chanse to be killed trought upper front armor. armor and gun advanse stay on german side. crew exp is big thing because they spot faster,shoot beter and faster.
Good advice. Soft factors for tank crews will dictate how a battle goes. I need to think more about this.
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You might be ageing like me and misremembering things, do you remember the up roar when Tiger I's drivers front plate was penetrated by 76mm Shermans in the CMBO demo, until people figured out to angle the hull vs the shermans? I think with the tiger they later during CMBB/CMAK figured out that the turret needed to be about 140mm due to turret and mantlet overlap but the DFP was still 10cm.
or the shock postings of Sherman 75mm penetrating StuG's at sub 600m in chance encounter demo?
Sherman 76s would pen the Panther turret at 800m if remember correctly in CMBO and CMBN.
I think you're reacting to the senario just putting the german thicker armour at ranges where it's irrelevant. So the tank combat is who shoots and hits first as opposed to 1000m disadvantage duels.
Could be I'm misremembering things.
But, even though I quit playing ASL and sold all of my ASL sets when CMBO came out, the old impressions of east front tactical combat gained from that game seem to remain in my head.
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I think you should have played CMBB, as I remember a well made Scenario of a coy of late model SS Panthers verses a battalion of T 34-85, The key for the T34's was getting at 600m ranges or relying on lucky turret hits, shot trap or nose hits. Panther's won by mearly keeping the T34's at arms length and using terrain to mask the nose armour. Basically the older engine in a much more simpler and in less details modelled the same interactions, closer ranges T34-85 will penetrate even the Panther frontally (at least the turret).
I have CMBB on my hard drive right now. That scenario sounds like a good one.
My impression is that the German armor in CMBO and CMBB was not as weak and fragile as the German armor in CMBN, CMFI and CMRT. I may be wrong about this. Do you think I'm wrong about this?
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And explicitly avoided using the Panzer Divisions to stop Russian breakthroughs unless no other option was available. The Germans learned a lot from their experience in the war and one of the biggest lessons they learned was that tanks are very good at killing each other mutually. Thus it was preferable to avoid expending precious Panzers and crews fighting tanks the Allies would replace in a month if lost.
Wasn't the preferred tactic to have a defense in depth such that the Soviet spearhead would lose all momentum until ripe for counter attack? That counterattack would need some assault AFVs I think.
Perhaps I have never fully realized just how much the tactical situation on the East Front had evolved to the Soviets favor by mid-1944.
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Why? the PIV/JdpzIV should be able to penetrate the front of the T34 up to 1200m the Panther from even further out. The Panther and 8cm JdpzIV should keep out the majority of shots above 500/600 m
You should be planning for flank shots of a matter of course but frontal engagements tend to favour the Germans depending on the tanks involved.
I've also been surprised at losing a T34-85 to StuG in a sub 300m engagement after my round bounced off the StuG's glacis, which is something that never really happened in CMBB. Of course in CMBB the round would have just been calculated against the front plate due to a less discrete modelling of the tanks involved.
I learned about tactical warfare on the East Front from reading books and playing board wargames. Advanced Squad Leader is a game that I played for almost 20 years.
The reason why my first impressions of RT are surprise and mild shock is because I don't believe that my "education" was very sound. Reading books and ASL? ASL didn't model tactical war on the East Front with nearly as much detail as CMRT.
When you get your main impressions of East Front tactical warfare from Advanced Squad Leader, which was designed back in 1985, it's no surprise that I am surprised and a little shocked.
Yes, I do need to plan more for flank shots. In ASL, the Panther and the JgdPz IV are invincible in a front on front battle with T34/85. That's probably a wrong lesson that I learned.
Thanks to the poster who mentioned that the game scenarios don't happen at ranges that allow German tank guns to shine. That is a Truism that I will have to remember.
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And came up with the Jagdpanther!.
Too bad that only about 400 Jagdpanthers were made.
Like I said, it's a wonder that Germany lasted until May, 1945.
It must have been Soviet logistical problems that kept them from Berlin until then, because, I don't see how it was the German AFVs.
In CMRT, when the T34/85s show up, there's nothing for the Panthers and Pzkw IVs to do but hide and hope for flank shots. I've got decades of learning about WW2 that I need to unlearn.
: )
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Ok, well, this is new.
I did not know that the Jgpz IV Late frontal armor could be penetrated at 1034 meters by the T34/85's 85mm gun.
Nothing I've ever read indicated that could happen, but, there it is. I guess that I need to read more.
It's hard to believe that the Germans lasted until May, 1945.
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Thanks, JasonC. I had not considered any of those facts. I guess that I should not be so shocked.
Most scenario combat ranges are around 500m or less, so, it seems to me that the lesson for the day is: against the T34/85, the Panther's front turret is vulnerable at ranges of 500m or less.
I did not realize that the Soviet 85mm AT gun was quite so effective.
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I will have to fight unfair, in that case.
: )
Date and Time of Day, please.
in Combat Mission Final Blitzkrieg
Posted · Edited by Champagne
The Demo looks great! I've finished the training scenario and I'm about to start on the next one.
I'd like to add a reminder to state the Date of the encounter. Could we please have that added to campaigns and scenarios? I'd like to know whether a clash is on 16 December or 20 December. It would to the verisimilitude of the play. Thanks.
If this is already universally applied, then, excuse me.