RobRas

DesertDave - I think we basically agree. Well, perhaps not on the atmosphere thing, but never mind that I really like the fact that computers have revived the ailing board wargame hobby making it possible to play online, by email or againt the computer itself. And I think we've only seen the start of this revolution. It's great. Provided - in my view - that the core value of strategy gaming remains. And this value is getting eroded because each new version of a game has to have an even more 'realistic' visual surface. Often making it hardet and harder to easily identify units and terrain types, to gauge distances etc. This wouldn't be a problem it it was possible to play SC2 with a flat board with hexes and normal military icons - just like SC1 was. And then an option for more details on counters and terrain. Or the other way around. But as the screen shots look now it doesn't seem like the 'flat' board with hexes is an option. If you go with tiles you're going with them. So true: I can just choose to play with the military icons but that doesn't really solve the problem - just reduces it a little.

Desert Dave - I have tried these kind of games with small soldiers and winter effects. A lot of the other strategy games look excactly like that. And I have played miniature wargames and it can be fun. But I love board wargames and I had hoped that SC2 would be a true board wargame. I don't need to be immersed in the proper atmosphere - I'm sitting on my butt playing a strategy game. It's certainly not soldiering. It's a game - I don't particularly want to be in the middle of a war. In my view a strategy game is about analyzing available data, forming strategy, allocating resources and implementing strategy. The game's user interface needs to hand me as much information as possible in the easiest manner making it possible for me to quickly evaluate the situation on the board. The board needs to be clear with well-defined and well-selected colors and the counters likewise. The old Advanced Third Reich/A World at War boardgame is to me close to the perfect design. Nothing to distract your eyes. Anyway: I know I'm in a minority and I know that me and my small group not buying the game will easily be outweighed by hundreds or thousands looking at the back of the box, seeing the screenshots and saying "Wow, look at that tank. I'm gonna buy this".

CraigRS - Amen to that. And SC1 managed to attract enough buyers to warrant an SC2 - even though it had crude graphics. Maybe beacause it carved - or perhaps cultured - a niche of wargamers whose primary concern and interest is relevant information. Not tiny soldiers with snow on their helmets or city hexes with tourist attractions

JJ - and thanks for the kind words from me as well It's great to be a part of a forum where courtesy and respect are in the forefront. And I can join CraigRS praise for SC1 and his hope that SC2 can be that truly great WWII strategic simulation.

Great idea for a thread, Zapp. My votes: 1) 1 2) 8 3) 10 D) 7 Tally: 1) 44 2) 119 3) 110 4) 74

CraigRS - I agree. And if that's the case then purely cosmetical considerations (pretty tanks)have dictated - or partially dictated - game design. Not a good sign in my view.

Posted by CraigRS: "In rethinking I tend to think it is the isometric view even more than the unit graphics that get me". I fully agree. The counters can probably easily be modified but we are - probably - stuck with the isometric board. OT: In Denmark it's afternoon now. And I'm at work. Hence the posting

JPWagner - that's true. I had forgotten those. That was an excellent feature.

Posted by pzgndr: "And there is a younger crowd of potential customers out there so as a marketing decision this isn't such a terrible idea". I know and I agree. It's probably a great marketing idea. It will likely end up looking like all the other strategic game titles out there - Panzer General, CIV, Empires etc. I just hoped that at least one company dared to be different

Sea Zones: Some time ago there was a discussion of the idea of sea zones instead of hexes. Kinda like in the old - but excellent - Clash of Steel. Made the naval warfare part of the game distinctive in flavor and strategy. Instead of just land warfare on blue hexes. Strategic Bombing: Option of bombing transport infrastructure increasing the cost of operational movement. Experience loss: Substantially reduced experience loss if units are rebuilt 1 strength point at the time - signifying the value of integrating replacements slowly. Artillery: In my view arty is integrated in the units combat factors and attack range. Artillery is usually assigned as corps or divisional assets and seldomly as independent units. Breakthrough: Perhaps and attack-move option for armor units where a hole can be created and exploited.

Quote by JJ: "...:a lot of it looks downright faggy and sissy stuff I'd be ashamed to show my beer drinking friends, Hubert always starts out that way and from there he gets more rugged". LOL Yeah, let's hope that. I really want SCII to be the truly great strategic WWII wargame it could be. Based on the excellent foundation of SC1 and with respect for serious and dedicated gamers.

JJ - "Everything else about SCII looks magnificent" was the last sentence in my first post. I do believe that a lot of the extra featuers look great and a lot of the SC comunity's wishes seem to have been integrated. I have nothing but praise for this. Great piece of work by Hubert. But when I look at the screenshots of the map and try to determine how many hexes are between Helsinki and Leningrad...well, the best I can come up with is a guesstimate. I know there will probably be a grid to make this easier but the only point - as I can see - of these refined graphics must be to make the game more marketable? Does anyone in this forum feel that seeing three small 3D men instead of a simple infantry icon will increase his or her enjoyment of the game? After the first couple of times? Well, perhaps. And perhaps I'm just getting old...

Moon - I know. But still development hours/money are used making the game more expensive - or your profits lower Furthermore it will - probably - require more computer ressources to run perhaps making the game slower or creating graphic card problems. I know this is speculation and I don't want to be negative. But I really love SC partly because of it's clean and informative no-fuss graphics. But I know graphics is king and beautiful screenshots are great marketing tools. I'm just an old and oldfashioned wargamer believing that fancy graphics are fine for arcade and shooter games. But in true strategy games they have the tendency to obscure information. If I want to know what an ME262 looks like I'll check the web or a book. My jetfighter counter just needs to inform me of the type and/or stats. But I'll just close my eyes and cross my fingers in the hope that you will include a 2D map and simple counters as an option.

As anonther lurker on this board for a long time I'm sorry to say that I have to agree with CraigRS on this one. The graphics are nice to be sure but the primary objective of the graphics in any boardgame is to present RELEVANT information as simple as possible. I don't need to see the Eiffel Tower - I know it's in Paris. I need to know it's a major city. I don't need to see icons for each country's tanks. I just need to know the type. One problem with isometric boards is that it often can be hard to evaluate the precise distance in hexes/movement points to this or that. Or the terrain of the hex for that matter. SC1 was - with its flaws - a model for simplicity and clean graphics with focus on the game itself. A true boardgaming classic. It seems to me that SCII makes the same mistake that a lot of other strategy games have done: Making the graphics work AGAINST the game by presenting a lot of unnecessary information. I know it's still early and the game can - and probably will - see many changes. And that it can only be fairly evaluated when the demo is out. I'm just a little disappointed: I had hoped that Battlefront would stay true to the classic boardgamer values and would have used all their ressources on the game machine itself - not on fancy graphics. Please make a 2D option with NATO symbols and simple map graphics. Please. Everything else about SCII looks magnificent.