[Message to Moon.]

Well all things considered, and while I did not have the endurance to actually read all that lengthy and apparently juvenile looking garbage, but it did appear like it was designed to antagonise.

And I would hope it would be treated like a petty juvenile posting.

Heck I have seen stuff locked for infinitely less reasons.

[Strategic Command in Canada]

When it comes to the games, me I tend to side with the poor schmuck that made it.

Thus, I would be disinclined to gripe about it being sold only through the source, if that actually is to the benefit of its creator.

But as it currently stands, while a lot are eagerly clamouring for an SC2 like it is desperately needed, I think the marketplace has still plenty of room for people to still discover the original.

I played through a game today, and sort of forced a few things through just to experiment and see what I might get out of pushing and shoving.

Suffice it to say, unless you are single (and like it that way), it takes a looooong time (my opinion) to actually burn out a desire to play ordinary SC.

But then again, if I play the game, it is usually maybe 30 minutes to an hour then I find something else to do (can't sit to long, health limits).

I figure it will take me 2 years of my normal pace to just finish off the basic obvious permutations actually. I am expecting to be playing SC still as fresh experiences even when SC2 hits the circuit.

I DO believe there is room for new sales. And I would rather it was not done through a bargain bin if possible.

[Ok I am back at it]

Kurt, I am willing to go with a resend.

I also botched my game with OD as well as a friend who doesn't frequent our forums here (I think) and Ironranger I believe.

What happened, is I supposedly "wisely" saved the last send before some computer maintenance.

Trouble is, I can not find the oh so wisely saved games.

[Ok I am back at it]

Well ineptitude has just cost me 4 games.

I am greatly disappointed, to inform my current opponents, my sheer lack of genius has lost me my 4 ongoing PBEM games.

Thus I have to award you guys automatic wins.

And I apologise.

Now if no one needs me, I am going to kick my butt a few times.

[Strategic Command in Canada]

Thanks for the clarification actually Moon.

I have seen Korsun on the shelf as well as Squad Assault and Uncommon Valour. Unsure if it was genuinely worth the effort though.

In each case, it was a single article. And I have seen this in a few EB outlets or other comparable locations.

But again, totally unsure if it was practical after the fact.

I have long thought retail shelf was required, but have had to reluctantly admit to possibly rethinking that line of thought as maybe just my being a bit old fashioned.

I have seen CM on the shelf a couple of times. Although sadly it was a used copy too.

I don't do used software ever. And certainly not used with only a 10% reduction in price.

Used to me means you get hit with a 40% reduction like the rest of the business world.

Kelly, you might also inquire of MH to for that matter, it might be their error of omission and not BF

[Strategic Command in Canada]

I think I scored that Military Hobbies link due to its obviously well established model sources, but I am glad it is being given good PR for wargaming as well.

I don't buy nearly as much today, as I might have bought in the spend spend spend 80s. Which means I have a great wealth of models and board games, but not really all that much in the way of computer wargaming.

I would suppose, if the hobby was back dated 20 years in time, I would likely be able to say I owned every major computer wargame title instead heheh.

Man I miss the 80s (being healthy and with a reasonable job sooooo helps with an expensive hobby hehe ).

[Strategic Command in Canada]

It was not easy for Matrix Games to get put on the shelf, and I suppose it won't be easy for Battlefront.

I personally would like to see Battlefront gain more shelf savvy. But I am as yet uncertain shelf presence has done much for Matrix Games in the long run.

That said, the only way to go might be online, regardless of the bitterness of the process.

While it is not well known here, it is a common comment I have made on Matrix Games though. Want a US originating game, and want it to get to you cheaply, have a US resident buy it and then remail it to ya.

I have not yet bought anything directly from a US source yet eh. I get my wargames re directed from a Texas Bell that is easily why that state should be proud. The cost to me for a wargame in Canada is basically 2 dollars more than it is for a person living in Texas. Cool eh

Oh and Canada Customs, sit on this and rotate.

[SC]

General rule of thumb, Battlefront doesn't really care for making anything connected with the Pacific.

Or at least that is the clear cut impression I have always gotten.

SC2 though, that is a much discussed, and highly likely eventuality.

Probably be here before Christ returns

[Ok I am back at it]

just a quick blurb for those that have PBEM games with me, I figure all that hassle with the virus is by now yesterdays news well and good.

I am going to fire up my games that I had underway when all that crud occurred.

For those that have games underway with me that wish to do a re start (if the game has grown stale with them) let me know.

At any rate, files will be underway again today (unless something prevents me from doing so).

[Disbanding Naval Units]

Screw play balance and screw historical.

The fact is, no military unit, naval or otherwise should be allowed to disband unless it is at strength 3 or less in my opinion.

In the real world (and lets face it you all like to scream blue murder the second realism is beat all to hell), in the real world, you do not disband perfectly good units wholesale without damned good provocation.

A unit beat down to strength 3 or less is likely a burden not an asset. Normally it is costing supplies, and not generating any return on those supplies expended.

A full strength unit though, it cost a great deal in resources to produce. In the real world throwing away a full strength naval unit is going to costs someone's head at the professional level.

I have done the ditch the French Navy to buy a HQ unit trick. Half the time I get a HQ unit that returns a lousy level of performance too. No garantee it was worth it in all cases.

But it is about as gamey as gamey gets.

It is also gamey as hell taking the French air unit and dumping it in Malta and essentially saying screw the French they will lose anyway, and I could use the freebie for the British.

But SC is just a game, and gamey in a game is basically just using what you can intelligently in some respects.

I would suggest, either limit disbanding to strength 3 or less for all units of any type, or not do anything at all.

Limiting it to Naval has no bearing in cold logic justification. The navy is no more special than any other service branch.

If you can disband one unit casually, then you can apply it to all.

[SC2 and Simultaneous Movement]

I don't think stacking would be needed myself, just a new process for inputing commands.

And I still say kick the sub counters out of the game. Make them an abstraction only.

[SC2 and Simultaneous Movement]

Now that truely does sound like a neat inspired notion actually.

I recently played the Risk 2 game, and it had a style mode that was simultaneous. Made all the difference eh. Took the game from ho hum to actually a nice challenge.

I am not sure how hard it would be to develope such a thing, but I am sure it is do able.

It would only require I think a new combat formula. Right now we have "attack" and "move then attack".

This new notion would require a formula where both moved and attacked if the hex was contested.

A player would need to give a destination hex, and then a command to proceed. And the unit would then attampt the move, and if impeded, would generate the new movement to combat formula.

All things considered, I think it would be a neat new twist. I personally would love something like this.

[Rant mode engaged]

Sadly, as an AAR it would go mostly like this.

Boring typical attack on LC Capital. Boring atypical success.

Insert my friends whining here about how the Alies suck, when what he really meant was he was a dumb incompetent history challenged whiner and never should have asked me to play in the first place.

Boring atypical attack on France that would have been grossly inadequate against even our most bland players in here. But I managed to deplete a french army with repeat air attacks then a hit from a corps and an army and an army followed through to claim Ardennes hex.

Armour vacationing in LC till I tell em the hole is big enough for my satisfaction.

Insert my friends whining here about how the Alies suck, when what he really meant was he was a dumb incompetent history challenged whiner and never should have asked me to play in the first place.

Three turns of attack, and friends unimaginative defense sees me through French Lines, lines that even a lame opponent could have held better. I am now attacking Paris held by a battere French air unit. Guess what, it gets beat up by armour, oh what a surprise result. I always suggest defending key hexes from attack from German armour with valuable air units eh.

Insert my friends whining here about how the Alies suck, when what he really meant was he was a dumb incompetent history challenged whiner and never should have asked me to play in the first place.

Not surprisingly, it is too late when he ducks out of Paris with battered air, and defends with an even less prepared corp unit that sure wasn't dug in yet.

Italians join. Natually no one joins the Allies. Guess he forgot, in history, no one did.

Insert my friends whining here about how the Alies suck, when what he really meant was he was a dumb incompetent history challenged whiner and never should have asked me to play in the first place.

Paris falls, like it had a chance? I get some average plunder. And he refuses to vacate Bourdeux and Brest, so of course I kill the British that won't get lost.

This leaves the Isles largely unmanned, but not being psychic I don't really know he has stupidly thrown away all his units.

Insert my friends whining here about how the Alies suck, when what he really meant was he was a dumb incompetent history challenged whiner and never should have asked me to play in the first place.

While waiting to attack Yugoslavia I have been deploying the needed units, one air one HQ and some mixed infantry and armour. Not like they were needed elsewhere eh. Certainly not France.

I make an average attack, and Yugo falls in 3 very atypical turns with light losses to my units. Gee what a shock.

My minor Axis partners are beginning to join, what a shock eh, not like it wasn't due to happen. Hmm no one has come to aid the Allies, clearly the game is both unbalanced and unfair, if you no bugger all about history that is.

Insert my friends whining here about how the Alies suck, when what he really meant was he was a dumb incompetent history challenged whiner and never should have asked me to play in the first place.

Well it is finally time, I have built an army outside of Russia, one that took no effort, as the Allies certainly didn't impede me in anyway.

Well they have made several suicidal attacks on my navies. Gee I will really miss those Italian naval units I guess. No wait, they took most of the british navy with them. So I guess I won't.

But I attack Russia in March, heck could have waited I guess, but why wait till the snow flies.

I have two HQ, 4 well position full strength level 1 jet air units, 5 tank units and a big ole bunch of infantry, and they have been itching t go for 3 turns now. Got all my minor buddies all psyched up to go as well.

So I attack Russia. And hmm I kill 5 Russian armies just like that. Odd eh.

Insert my friends whining here about how the Alies suck, when what he really meant was he was a dumb incompetent history challenged whiner and never should have asked me to play in the first place.

Well my esteemed friend in a pout abandons Kiev and Odessa and Minsk and Riga, thus ensuring his total doom. Just doesn't want to play if the Allies suck so much.

I told him the evening was over he threw away two perfectly good hours of my time (it was a hotseat game). And he could just go home.

Moral of this story, don't waste your time playing stupid jerks that can't accept their level of ignorance and lousy education might possible rule out their ablity to play a wargame.

Especially when they are to obtuse to recognise it.

The allies are no cakewalk in this game. I have gone on to play totally horrible games as the Germans when playing a decent opponent. I have had my butt handed to me on a platter before the Russians even entered the game before.

[Rant mode engaged]

Ok he might see this he might not, frankly at this point I don't care.

I just wasted 2 full hours doing absolutely nothing worth doing.

I rolled the dice, odds he gets Axis. The roll came up evens. It was not like I slanted conditions in my favour.

Of campaigns there were six on the list, so a second roll later and I got Fall Gelb. Not like I was using unfair advantage again.

Hands up anyone here that thinks I am a superior player at this game.

Put your hand down stupid.

Ok the opening moves, I hit LC capital with two air strikes and a land unit. It falls. Gee what a shock. I move an infantry unit in to claim the kill.

LC surrenders. Hardly counts as brilliant.

My opponents response, oh great the game is over.

I attack France and use deplete air units to hit a hole in his line, then open a breech with infantry and then take the hex. It was the Ardennes. I purposely hold back armour, as they are expensive, and I am waiting for a genuine hole.

That hole would never have happened with even the most bland player among us playing. But I kept at it. Well I manage to get a hole eventually, so of course I use it.

Several turns later France falls. Oh whipdeedoo, like it is a surprise France fell? And my method was hardly brilliant. But against a whining complaining oh I can't hope to win player, clearly the game is slanted against the Allies. They "never have any chance of winning this game".

I try to ignore the endless rant of doom and inadequacy. But damnit it gets a bit much.

I take out Yugoslavia in a 3 turn conquest, hardly what counts as genius and I know it.

And all through this, my Italians are duking it out with the Royal Navy in what are so clearly stupid waste of valuable assets battles.

This is only matched by equally stupid waste or resources battles between the Royal Navy and Kreigsmarine in the Baltic sea.

Well March 41 arrives, and I figure ok I have the army might as well use it, the US will get here someday after all.

I launch the war against Russia, and in the attack I manage to pick out a few units and kill them. But against 3 air and numerous tank and armies, yeah I can see the Russians losing a few units.

But next turn I see a Russian Air on the front line, and a Russian armour sitting in front of my juggernaut. Yes they are obliterated.

Thinking it is impossible, I send a unit to Riga, and hmm no one home. No one home in Odessa, no one home in Minsk nor in Kiev.

Thanks a lot Jay, glad to have played you. Stick to playing games your small little ego can deal with.

I am infuriated right now. I don't know if he will see this, and I care not.

But I won't be playing him a future game. This was a very good example of simply grotesque poor sportsmanship on his part.

He know so little of ANY history, and yet whines profusely how this game is impossible to win as the Allies. I want to know how he was able to come to that conclusion.

I am greatly upset, and I apologise to my SC bretheren.

I will only say this for any people new to the game. Until you have played both sides 10 times in each and every single camapaign, you won't be able to say you have the right to qualify the game as eeither pro Axis or in any way unbalanced in any manner.

I have experienced hard fought games as both sides even against the AI.

Against even our most average players, you can just assume you will lose and rather effectively if your gameplay is either unimaginative, or you refuse to learn what makes the game work.

I am on a scale of 1-10, no better than a 6 as a player.

[Please someone fill me in..]

Now if you want to know reeeeeeeeeally unlikely, go and read through the "expectations" coming out of the computer World in Flames forum

Those guys are going to wait a loooooong time for that game me thinks.

[Please someone fill me in..]

For all those waiting for SC2, just go to Matrix Games and stand next to someone waiting for Combat Leader.

Suddenly everything will look up up up, and all will become much more positive heheh.

[Please someone fill me in..]

Eeeeeeeeeewwwwwwww

Seeing as Moon said it, it has to be true guys

So now we can move forward to taunting the newbies with teasing about how long till the official release when Hubert gets to respond with a winking smiley

[SC2 Scope? Pacific Theater? Matrix?]

Advanced Third Reich had a painful experience when they made Rising Sun, and then tried to unify them after the fact.

The reulting game is likely a nice game, but required a fews years of rather nasty behaviour from fans on the left the right and those in the middle.

Hubert could like make an SC game for Pacific with his eyes closed. But don't bother asking him to make an SC game that unifies Europe and the Pacific, and it be any easier than it has ever been for anyone else.

Global Grand Strategy games that begin and end as global settings, usually work better than those designed after the fact. Or at least, the designers go through less hell in the process.

Axis and Allies is indeed a great game when you measure the fun factor. But it is hardly Advanced Third Reich grade wargaming.

Computer World in Flames will no doubt have zero competition for king of the hill when it is finished.

But the problem is it is a pet project likely moreso than a priority issue. And if you have looked in on the forum for it at Matrix Games, it is clear it is not going to please everyone unless it can do vitually everything.

It will have to have an AI that is capable, and It will have to incorporate every permutation of the board game to date.

No one wants to give up it being the board game verbatim, and yet everyone wants the board games tedium removed.

No small task.

SC2 should be old news me thinks long before cWiF hits the market.

I personally think World at War by Gary might be the sort of thing a lot of us will be wanting.

Not so darned simple as A&A, not so darned complex as WiF, not isolated to one theater like SC or A3R. And on a computer so we can play it aginst others or solo.

What do I really want from SC2? Really I just want the subs gone, places like Ireland to stop being Black Holes and maybe a more involved political scene. I am not planning on asking the world of SC. It is fine more or less. I just want a few design glitches maybe adjusted.

If I want Hubert to make a global wargame, I will prefer him working on a clean slate actually.

[What do you think about this idea?]

SC = simple.

Simple = fun.

SC2 = more fun

I recall how much fun it was to play Advanced Third Reich.

Sure the game could be played by just two, but it was more fun arguing with your ally over "the right idea" of the conduct of the war.

It was nice that a new player could take the Italians, because its not like they could get into any reeeeeally big trouble the German player couldn't fix (if he wanted to ).

It was fun being the Russian player, and being an absolute pain in the butt for the British player, and knowing so much depended on Russia's performance, that they had to at least listen to you. You just never knew if they were holding back on ya.

I think that would make SC2 a sure smashing thrill ride eh.

[Abstract Art and SC]

Black Holes are predictably interesting, because, well, they eat everything, reality included.

I mean physics supposedly actually breaks down under those incredible conditions.

But what blows me away is the subject of White Holes. Which if I have followed correctly, are lesser not so massive creations.

And while Black Holes are sucking up, White Holes are spewing forth. Or in the case of what I have read, they are not stealing reality and time into a no way back death, they are actually spitting out the past or reverse time.

Which is sure interesting for the ramifications on our portion of reality out here in boring space.

Because what it means, is there is no beginning nor end. Or in other words, the universe now created, will continue to exist indefinitely as Black Holes swallow up, and White Holes return what we call "reality".

Or to annoy the religious crowd. There won't be an end any time soon.

[Abstract Art and SC]

Picky question for JJ, which kaboom was that kaboom in the picture (I am actually familiar with most kabooms and always like to find new ones).

[Abstract Art and SC]

Crank it up a notch??

Who let Emeril (cook) in the room

[SC2 Idea - Axis Selects Atlantic Sub Starting Location]

Even better idea, remove the subs from the board, and let the Allies deal with them being an effect, not merely a weird form of whack a mole.

If they are on the board we will find them, and then two turns later no subs.

Call that historically accurate, think again.

I have never once fought the "battle of the Atlantic" in SC. I either ignore them, or go out and kill them. There is never any chance they will survive if the Allied player decides they are toast.

It's not a fight, just a case of does the Allied player care.

[Abstract Art and SC]

Immer if ever we get around to an SC thread Hall of Fame, your first post on this thread is sure deserving as being inductee number One

You said what you said amazingly well (which is odd considering it was you that said it does anyone ever truely understand Immer? ).

I agree fully. Its time designers stopped copying each other methods and ways, and proved they can think beyond compiling mere code.

Any doofus can learn code and programming, but it takes an artist to make it look like anything worth looking at.

I am SICK! ya hear SICK of bloody hearing how 3d will save wargaming. Makes me think of some friggin televangelist everytime I have to stomache listening to it.

I know that hexes are not the center of the universe, they merely work. Nothing special about hexes though.

And turns, they add structure, but so what. Structure is good for holding up a house, but it isn't everything. Its just I find it painfully annoying being told Real time is the only way to move forward. Phooey.

Most revolutionary wargame to date for me, has to be the card using Up Front. No counters, no turns, no map, no hexes, no boundaries. It takes a good poker player to win in a good game of Up Front too. So being a grognard won't always count.

And I have played it against two women who could care less about history or wargames or games at all.

Try saying that about yer gosh darned RTS crappola I say.

Hubert with SC, showed us that a great game is not about cute counters that animate, nor is it about spiffy 3d maps. It's all whether the game is any good at all.

I personally think Hubert with his SC, can easily join the ranks of the guys that gave us Civilization, Close Combat Steel Panthers and Panzer General. All games that were runaway successes because they merely did what they did and did it well.

If it uses real time, it isn't so danged unique. If it's in 3d some what everything is in 3d.

I want something original.

Maybe the next breakthrough with luck will be in AIs. Would be nice.

Think of a wargame that logs every game you play, and every move you make, and data bases all that data, and then lets you teach it how to beat your atypical moves.

Wouldn't it be a hoot if say Rambo couldn't beat his own self in a game heheh.

God that would be funny him whining about houserules against himself hehe

[airborne units and divisibles?]

Mark you must have played to many RTS games and not enough true hex using wargames hehe.

RTS games don't use turns which is the key factor.

It isn't a function of a single hex using wargame to be able to use a drag click capture box concept.

It's strictly a dynamic of the software employed in these games. Games with structured turns have no capacity to do that, where each unit must receive individual commands specifically within a specified turn structure.

On the subject of units of lower scale, part of the problem is often the insistence there has to be a physical unit present.

I think subs for instance should be an abstract expenditure and resolved effect. If the allies don't counter this abstracted effect with the appropriate counter effect, then the resulting simulated response only becomes increasingly severe.

Thus, if the German player soaks resources into submarine warfare, and the Allies do nothing, then in time the war of the Atlantic is lost and Britain eventually succumbs exactly as it would have happened, and Sealion never need occur to defeat England.

And we need never see an impotent sub counter ever on the map to do this. It was done this way in Third Reich and worked excellently.

The counter was in producing ASW assets.

The Allies offensive arm was in Bombers. But the bombers can remain counters, as they actually were multi role applied during the war. The burden is to know when to use them and how much to use them in each role.

Strategic bombing need not be done deliberate to be simulated. Just apply exact same methodology as with subs as was done in Third Reich.

This only need be a chart accessed much as Research is a chart accessed.

In this way, you get historical conditions, historical repercussions, and the ability to decide if you could have carried it out better.

And you never had to employ impotent counters on the board.

Same whole philosophy holds true with Airborne assets and other troops of a highly valued yet minor quantity sized force. Only three divisions of airborne landed on D Day. And there wasn't enough for either nation to make even a half corps.

Now a menu option for an attacking unit, to use pre purchased airborne assets, that would be expended much as would always be the case, is a better idea than forcing a counter onto the map, that doesn't fit in with the games scale and design concept. I can't see any realistic reason to expect them in SC2 either.

The Airborne assets are gone the turn after dropped. And keep in mind. Airborne troops are no longer a viable notion 2 weeks after a drop. They would get absorbed into the unit they supported.

They should just be a modification to the attack calculation software used to calculate effects in SC2.