[Tank Destroyer Battalions]

Hey Harry. This one is yours I do belive

[Why Bergepanzer?]

Originally posted by Andreas:

That would explain the number of hits on the site.

All the best

Andreas

Hey wait a minute. I now note you have a picture of a diorama of the battle of Midtskogen in there.

Wasn't there somebody desperately looking for a map of the Midtskogen battle some time ago? Somebody working on a mod for the norwegians as well. Wasn't it an american or canadian with danish heritage or the like? Somebody we know around here?

Cheers

Dandelion

[Why Bergepanzer?]

Originally posted by Tero:

Originally posted by Dandelion:

But you should know Andreas - Lotta means female soldier in Swedish (I think).

The Finnish female auxiliary force was called Lotta Svärd after the charater (IIRC a girlfriend or wife of one of the main characters) in Runebergs "Stories by Ensign Ståhl".

Lotta is a Nordic womans first name and AFAIK has no warlike connotations in itself.

I beg to differ. This pigtail looks rather warlike

Cheers

D

[Why Bergepanzer?]

Originally posted by Andreas:

BTW - any news from Mattias at your end Dandelion?

Cheers

Andreas

Saw him just the other day, hadn't seen him or heard fom him for half a year by then. He hasn't been answering letters or calls. Ran into him on the street by chance. He looked kind of pale actually, didn't seem to feel very good. Couldn't get much of an answer out of him regarding his disappearance and lack of response to any of the attempts to reach him. Asked him if he needed any help but he didn't answer. So he didn't say no either. He said he was in a hurry, and that he'd get in touch with me. But he hasn't. Not yet anyway. Rather discomforting encounter really. Can't help but thinking something is wrong. Not much I can do but wait though. He is no longer registered anywhere, impossible to find any adress or phonenumber.

Cheers

Dandelion

[Passenger capacity of Stug's underated.]

How can you tell it's canadian? Don't canadians ride horses and wear lemonsqueezer hats?

[Why Bergepanzer?]

Helmut Berger was a famous German actor in the 40s and the president of the German film academy is called Senta Berger (was at least, I'm not all that updated). Had a colleague in Berlin named Roland Berger. Studied in Vienna with a French guy called Jacques Berger. There is a swedish lawyer called Magnus Berger, of some repute in Human Rights issues. Anna Berger is a moderately skilled German fencer. There are Bergers all over the place. Productive clan apparently.

So who's this Berger Berger guy Red?

But you should know Andreas - Lotta means female soldier in Swedish (I think). So your third link in the sig will be getting a steady supply of scandinavian visitors I am sure.

Cherioops

Dandelion

[Why Bergepanzer?]

Gebirgspanzer. Would have been the term. Singular as in English.

Compare "Gebirgspanzeraufklärungsbataillon", a term not in use during the war but in the postwar army (only one battallion exists, belonged to the 1st Gebirgsdivision until it was dissolved, now serving with 10th armoured).

Are you really still playing CMBO Sequoia? The BFC should be sending you a silver watch.

Cheers

D

[Passenger capacity of Stug's underated.]

Originally posted by Loaf:

[QB I think he has hooked his rifle sling over some protrusion on the hull and is holding the rifle to keep from sliding off the vehicle. [/QB]

Or he is covering the unit emblem with his riflebutt, shielding it from the camera. This motley crew being frustratingly examplary in the total absence of any other discernable unit symbols. Looking very young there, the vehicle crewmen, whereas the riflemen and officers look a lot like a reserve unit.

As for awkward positions, I am rather more puzzled by the man on the extreme left in the picture. Looks rather like he is walking next to the vehicle than riding it.

Cheers

Dandelion

[CMAK - Quick Tourney - Heads Up]

Nasty business, RL.

D

[historical question]

Originally posted by JonS:

To be fair though, didn't the 16th do passingly well? Granted they sort of evaporated during GOODWOOD, but they were just a tad outgunned in that one ...

Well yes I think they did perform credibly. Normandy was after the army restructuring and reorganisation of the divisions. They ought to have performed like any other infantry division and by and large they did. Like Kingfish I tend to regard them as a regular reserve division, performing as such.

And as for the performance before that point, it was merely the inevitable consequence of the endemic dilettantism of their government.

All the best

Dandelion

[historical question]

Originally posted by Corvidae:

Dandelion,

Sounds interesting, I would like to find more info on these luftwaffe infantry divisions,

Use Andreas' links to your advantage, I have no online links to offer but can as always recommend Tessin. Below a summary.

The first Luftwaffe field units were actually created in the (early) winter of 1942. Under command of AOK16 (Hgr Nord) stood the Lw-Division Meindl consisting of Lw-Feld-Rgt 1.-5., plus Rgt 14. but this regiment had only a regimental Hq. It also included the Ski-Bataillon of Luftflotte I. In the centre there was the Lw-Infanterie-Regiment Moskau and in Finland was raised the 1. Lw.Feld-Btl.

The order to raise Lw-Feld-Divisionen was issued September 12th 1942 and responsibility was given to Fliegerkorps XIII. The first eight divisions (1.-8.) started training in October, apparently all in Groß-Born with the men mainly drawn from Flieger regiments 10 (Neukuhren), 14 (Klagenfurt), 21 (Magdeburg) and 42 (Stade), plus a number of anonymous contributor Lw units. These divisions consisted of four battallions except 7th which had only three and 8th appearing to have had only two. There were no regimental Hqs in the divisions. In addition, each of these divisions had an antitank battallion, antiaircraft battallion, artillery battallion, a signal company and a pioneer company.

Second generation (divisions 9-20) were trained in various locations. Most of them still in Groß-Born, the rest in Fallingbostl, Bergen/Celle and Arys. Identified contributor Lw units were Flieger Regiments 62 (Quedlingburg), 72 (Detmold), 12 (Handorf), 13 (Neubiberg), 61 (Oschatz), 23 (Kaufbeuren) and the abovementioned Lw.Inf.Rgt.Moskau (formed the core of 19th division). In addition, recruits were drawn from general reserves of the Luftgau IV. The battallion in Finland was renamed Landesschützen Bataillon 1 der Luftwaffe and did not provide manpower for any of these divisions. These divisions consisted of two Lw-Jäger-Rgt of three battallions each, plus an artillery regiment of three or four battallions (of which one was Flak), a recon company, pioneer company and signals company.

Divisions 21 and 22 were planned to be raised using the abovementioned Lw-Division Meindl as core, but this never came to be. Number 22 was never raised and 21st used a newly trained regiment (43) as core unit instead. The Meindl division was instead transformed into a number of Lw Jäger Bataillone (three to be precise). These were never transferred to the army, instead their number was increased to 10 by the end of the war.

There were a number of other odd units raised, belong to the Lw Feld units. Lw-Feld-Rgt 501-503 were raised in Norway. Later transfered to the army with the others.

In Italy, the Wach-Bataillone OBS (Oberbefehlshaber Süd) 1 to 4 were raised and some served in Tunisia. They were dissolved, not transferred, in 1943.

In the Balkans Sicherungs-Bataillone I to VI were raised by late 1944 and these were formally part of the Lw-Feld troops as well, although the divisions of that force belonged to the army by then.

As the divisions proper reached fronts and started suffering (abnormal) casualties, Flieger regiments 11, 16, 24, 26, 33, 41 and 43 were all dissolved to provide replacements.

Divisions 7 and 8 "disappeared" in the chaos after Stalingrad, the odd survivors were adopted by division 15. Division 2 was destroyed at Nevel in october 1943 (survivors went to division 6) and division 3 was destroyed at Vitebsk. Division 15, consisting primarily of remnants and survivors, proved an unstable formation and was dissolved. All other divisions suffered various grevious rates of casualties.

The order to transfer to the army was issued november first 1943. The army inherited the remnants of divisions 1, 4-6, 9-14 and 16-21. The heavy battallions of the artilleryregiments were not transferred to the army, they returned to serve as Flak units.

It wasn't the end of the Lw Feld troops though. In october 1944 the Luftwaffe were ordered to provide 40 fortress battallions, each of 3 companies, for service along the West Wall. There were delivered, numbered I-XXXX. None of them saw any extended service, but were dissolved, the men going to army or paratroop formations.

Also by october 44, the Luftwaffe raised a number of Lw-Inf-Btl (41, 42, 51, 52 (all these in Germany), 81 (Slovakia), 82 (slovakia), 85 (Budapest)) and these served until destroyed or until VE day.

A division of airforce infantry was raised in march 45 in Berlin. These were school personnel and such. To label them part of the Lw Feld troops is possible but highly academic.

That's the frame of Luftwaffe service.

In army service the divisions retained their number but were called Feld-Div. (L) and the regiments were simply called Jäger-Rgt (not Lw). Divisions 4, 6, 16, 17, 18, 19 and 21 were three regiment divisions, the rest had only two. They used Division n.A. organisation (in Western literature often called Division 44 organisation). They received green Waffenfarbe (arm of service colour of the Jäger, or rifle, corps) except division 20. After retraining, Divisions 4 and 6 were sent to the central (eastern) front, 9, 10, 12, 13 and 21 to the northern (eastern) front, 16-18 were sent west, 19 and 20 sent south (Italy), 11th to the Aegean and 14th to Norway.

By spring 44 divisions 9, 10 and 13 were destroyed on the eastern front.

Division 19 was actually destroyed in Italy but then recreated as a regular infantry division. Also destroyed in Italy was division 20, re-raised as division 155 (a training division).

Divisions 4 and 6 were destroyed in july 44, estern front.

Divisions 16 and 17 were destroyed in Normandy and division 18 was ditto in Belgium some weeks later. Remnants were used to raise two regular infantry divisions.

The only formations to survive as such until VE day were 11 (Greece) and 14 (Norway).

Hope that helped get you started in penetrating the subject in greater detail.

Cheers

Dandelion

[historical question]

Originally posted by dog of war:

are the luftwaffe infantry in this game a air landing unit or what are they

They are not airlanding units. Below my text from cmakdb psted in:

With the catastrophic casualties suffered in the East, the German army had already spent the part of the army Reserve (men aged 20 to 35) considered first line (i.e. the youngest eight classes) by the winter of 1942. Their eyes turned to the Luftwaffe. The latter had only received a small section of the classes 1921 to 1924, but as these were unspent there were around 200 000 young, fit and motivated men in the Luftwaffe Reserve. Roughly 100 000 of these had already undergone Grundausbildung (regardless of service, basic infantry training had to be passed) and the army demanded the transfer of these immediately.

Hermann Göring, chief of the Luftwaffe and minister of the government, feared the reduction of armed force under his immediate control. His position in the government and party would be reduced accordingly. Thus, he countered the army demand with a promise to raise 20 ground troop divisions, using the entire Reserve of 200 000 men, if these divisions would be kept under Luftwaffe control. Confronted with this or nothing, the army reluctantly agreed. Thus were created the Luftwaffe-Feld-Divisionen.

The men were all taken from the Luftwaffe, as a rule the army did not even train them. As a rule, the divisions raised contained no men with infantry combat experience, not even officers or staff. Generally, instructors lacking the same experiences trained the men. While excellent quality recruits, the result was still the lowest quality trained regular combat formations ever entering German service in the war, with officers incapable of reading maps and signallers unfamiliar with army radios, and so on. Sounded grand enough, with units carrying the title Luftwaffe-Jäger-Regiment and several formations using titles such as Ski-Bataillone so and so.

The divisions were generally well equipped(this could vary though). The army was forced to supply the equipment necessary for 20 divisions. In addition, the Luftwaffe had liberal supplies of their own. Given that the divisions were very small, this usually meant levels of equipment quite a way away from that of ordinary army infantry divisions. Precious vehicles were issued in a scale ensuring almost complete motorisation of many of these formations.

Göring did not keep his promise and did not use the entire Reserve. The first eight divisions (1-8) were actually brigades, with four infantry battalions each plus support units. The following 13 divisions (9-21) were stronger, but still only two regiments of three battalions each (normal infantry divisions would have three such regiments at that point in the war).

All were sent to the East.

Some dissolved upon contact with the enemy, such as divisions 7 and 8, simply disappearing and never heard from again. Several were totally destroyed in their first combat, with drastic casualty rates and rapid loss of all heavy equipment (i.e. "bugging out"). The divisions generally failed every tactical objective issued to them and suffered abnormal casualty rates in every action.

By November 1943 the army had had enough and forcibly transferred all remaining units (to the army). All were withdrawn from the front for retraining and reorganisation, usually used as occupation troops in quiet corners of Europe. Army instructors preformed six months of retraining and the divisions were beefed with experienced army leaders, NCOs as well as officers. In the end, the army was able to create 14 fully-fledged infantry divisions (most of them using the Division n.A. organisation) from these remnants. They now carried the name Feld-Divisionen (L) and had switched to army colours and insignia (but not uniforms if they could help it, since those supplied by the Luftwaffe were of superior quality). Most were sent to the front again, performing on quite another level.

Only two served in the Mediterranean, the 19th and 20th. These were both slightly odd, as units serving in the Med had a tendency to be.

The 19th was stationed in a quiet part of the Netherlands after the transfer to the army. It was a Bodenstndig (static) division at that point. By the summer of 1944 it was sent to Italy, where it transformed to Division n.A. organisation (receiving the title Sturm when completed) and entered combat in June. In July, the division was almost completely destroyed. Having displayed fine qualities however, the remaining men were sent to Denmark, to form a regular army division there (19.Gren.Div.). Some of the men were also transferred to the 20th as noted below.

The 20th was withdrawn to Denmark for retraining and during the transformation process it was classified as a bicycleborne division (and thus changed not to white Waffenfarbe but to yellow, interestingly rather similar to Luftwaffe Yellow). Like the 19th, it was sent to Italy in the summer of 1944 and there completed its transformation to a standard infantry division (also obtaining the title Sturm, signifying only that it was now capable of offensive action). If fought until December 1944, reinforced by men from the 19th in August. By December, the division was so depleted that it was dissolved. As it has performed more than credibly however, the remaining men entered service with the 26th Panzerdivision.

[Armour question.]

Yup, should be around from october 43. If you mean the M43 105/25?

But you need the 1.03 patch. It won't appear without the patch.

All the best

Dandelion

[October 8th, 1944 - The 9th US Infantry Division in the Hurtgen Forest - Scenario]

What mod is that you're using David?

Cheers

Dandelion

[historical question]

Originally posted by Kingfish:

Why not just disassemble the tanks and drop them in 16,249 individual cannisters?

Actually they did that at Dien Bien Phu, using Chaffees. Worked marvellously, all 10 were assembled in time to be destroyed in the battle.

Although I am not to sure about the number of cannisters of course...

Cheers

D

[historical question]

Jon, that was a sweeping summary of the airlanding arm in general, matching the level of interest displayed by the questioner. It wasn't intended for detail study. You know, I was speaking (writing, as it was) generally, as a rule. As the 22nd fought six years of war and pioneered the airlanding operations, they tend to be the rule. 91st existed a few months and so her divergence in structure out of practical necessity, while interesting of course, will not usually warrant comment in a sweeping summary.

Had on the other hand the questioner wanted a detailed study, one might have made an effort to deliver one. But he was just generally curious, as you can see above. I could have written more extensively on the topic but I assumed I would have lost him by page 2. He just wanted to know the characteristics of these arms.

Specifically the three battallions of 1057th and 1058th respectively had four understrength companies each, plus regimental companies. The regimental companies were semi-permanently distributed. This according to Tessin.

As for the Luftlande companies I know how they were supposed to be organised. That's not saying they always were. They manifestly weren't as they changed organisation even officially at two times, not mentioning field realities et cetera. One would need the divisional history of the 91st to know how closely exactly they followed authorised organisation, and I don't have access to it. But you know, generally speaking, as a rule (literally):

Companies were divided into a Fliegende Staffel and a Erdstaffel (flying- and Ground units).

Fliegende Staffel (called "I" in military jargon) had a

Coy Hq

Company commander

Coy Hq section

Coy Hq section leader

Communications NCO

4 Runners

Recon section

Section leader

5 privates (recon)

Antitank section

Section leader

4 privates (initially, eventually 11 men, reflecting the increasing need to crew ever heavier weapons)

(here later also a machinegun section of two guns)

Platoons 1 -3

Platoon commander

Platoon hq section

Section leader

4 runners

4 squads (per platoon)

Squadleader

7 privates, except 4th squad which had only 6.

Incidentally, issue was one machinegun per squad.

mortar section

Section leader

2 privates (initially, eventually 8 men)

There was also a number of men included in the flying part of the company but not in any specific subsection, namely

Equipment NCO

Medical NCO

4 stretcher bearers

a weapon mechanic/specialist.

All in all the flying (bayonet) part of the company had 4 officers, 24 NCOs, 140 privates.

In addition was the ground element (called "II" in military jargon).As the name suggests it was not meant to take part in air assaults.

It consisted of

Combat support

Commanding NCO (the Spiess)

A company clerk

Two cooks

Two horse-tenders

9 privates primarily acting drivers of horse-carts or trucks.

Supply section

Section commander

1 private

Pack column

Column commander

3 privates (of which one a tailor and one a shoemaker)

Special Equipment section

2 privates, driving the tuck of the section.

All in all then, the LL company counted 4 officers, 26 NCOs and 162 men.

This to be found in the K.St.N./KAN 131c.

After 1941 there was also a machinegun section of two guns. This was distributed from the initial machinegun companies. The machinegun companies were scrapped following the Crete experience (in which the airlanding units did not take part - depending how you look upon the Sturm Regiment - but from which could be drawn valuable experiences of air assault nonetheless). While they existed they used the K.St.N/KAN 151c.

Regimental companies were, after 1941, supposed to be distributed to battallion command. Regiments were supposed to be 15 company regiments (instead of 14) all units belonging to battallion organisation. Rgt HQ was thin, Bat HQ was fat, in the LL org. Exist the regimental companies did in various periods nonetheless however. Either on paper (while in fact distributed), or for real.

For the in-depth study of these units I sincerely recommend "Die Deutsche Fallschirmtruppe 1939-1941" by Karl-Heinz Golla and "Die Deutsche Fallschirmtruppe 1942-1945" by Hans-Martin Stimpel. In spite of the titles, the airlanding arm is covered in painful detail.

All the best

Dandelion

[German paratroop monument Crete]

It's a monument.

Not a grave, not a cemetary.

I can see no obligation for Germany to maintain any Nazi monuments wherever they might have been raised, for whatever reason.

Some monumental structures are interesting insofar that they make excellent display of typical contemporary totalitarian art. They have kept, for instance, the basic layout of Tempelhof - landing there is a bit like stepping into a PK flick, and can really give you the weirdest feeling.

But apart from such landmarks, I can't really see neither historical nor moral interest in maintaining every little rock raised all over Europe.

In quite a few eastern German cities there were monuments celebrating the equally heroic sacrifices of the soldiers of the Red Army. You don't see very many of them around anymore. Nor can you see very many in Poland, Hungary, Czech Republic etc. Only Vienna seems hell bent to retain her ridiculous monument celebrating her "liberation" (I guess the Austrians really, really need to believe they were liberated rather than conquered).

The dismantling of the monuments of the fomer Soviet régime was not an act of disrespect against the fallen soldiers of that former empire, nor has it soured relations between any former member of the empire and Germany.

The monuments were just obsolete and uninteresting.

Like this monument. Why can't this lot bring the monument home to their own garden, and tend it in peace?

Chop chop

Dandelion

[One of the more disgusting things I've ever seen in my life]

Actually...

Tho by no means as protracted as that, I really came to think of a scene from CMAK when I used Pz III against Lee - or is it Grant - with much the same effect. Looked pretty much the same really, except for the dust. No hit points of course, but a lot of bouncing rounds.

[The Maltese Falcons, a fatal decision?]

So we seem to have reached the conclusion that at least in 1942, the invasion would not have had any conclusive effect on the African campaign. If executed in 1941 however, it might have had some impact.

I'd like to move on to a What-If study on a 1941 invasion if you please.

"Bitterboy", if still around, might be helpful here as I seem to recall he held a What-If campaign on this very topic.

Operation Herkules was first drafted in April 1941. It was finally scrapped in July 1942. In fact it was only finally approved in April 1942 but theoretically it could have been executed at any time in between April 41 and July 42 (historical schedule was July 1942).

The plan relied upon substantial German paratroop elements (initially Brigade sized) to support the Folgore and San Marco units in the initial assault. These men were unavailable from April to June 1941, fighting in the Balkans. Germany opted to make the Meindl division a priority and thus did not create the necessary brigade until September 1941.

Same goes for the substantial elements of German transport aircraft needed for the operation. 220 of the some 500 Ju 52 used were lost in the Balkans. Difficult to say when recovery would have allowed renewed efforts of Crete scale.

For their part, the Italians had the San Marco regiment readied by June 1941 already, but the Folgore wasn't ready until September 1941.

So I think we can safely say that the soonest possible point of execution would be September 1941 then. This all assuming that the other three divisions to participate could be assembled and the necessary air units concentrated.

Would it have succeeded? Would casualty rates have had effects on other operations?

Yours

Dandelion

[Humber, Daimler, Marmon-Herrington and that lot]

The UK/CW quite obviously persisted in the use of wheeled armour for their recce needs, at least operational such. Having noted this for many years I feel the time has come to actually learn why and how. How did these recce units operate, what did small scale recce tactics and modus operandi look like? What was the terrain capacity of these cars? Although recce along the road following the axis of advance would be the norm, this cannot have been the full extent of the capacity of UK/CW Recce units. Or was it?

Yours

Dandelion

PS. Yes I am bombarding the forum. You're not getting away with this apathetic loitering in threads of humble qualities or ill repute, just because it's summer.

[Humber, Daimler, Marmon-Herrington and that lot]

The UK/CW quite obviously persisted in the use of wheeled armour for their recce needs, at least operational such. Having noted this for many years I feel the time has come to actually learn why and how. How did these recce units operate, what did small scale recce tactics and modus operandi look like? What was the terrain capacity of these cars? Although recce along the road following the axis of advance would be the norm, this cannot have been the full extent of the capacity of UK/CW Recce units. Or was it?

Yours

Dandelion

PS. Yes I am bombarding the forum. You're not getting away with this apathetic loitering in threads of humble qualities or ill repute, just because it's summer.

[On Engineers, Sappers and Pioneers etc]

After all these years I still haven't figured it out.

In the UK/CW armies, and in the US Army (presumably they will differ), what were the correct WWII terms for;

a) The infantry with some engineer training used in assault tasks, often including flamethrowers?

The qualified engineers used for fieldworks within the scope of a combat enviroment (e.g. building a pontoon bridge under fire).

c) The engineers used for non-combat tasks.

If indeed these were different types of units, found at different echelons.

I'll trade this info for an endless monologue on German engineers if you wish.

Cheers

Dandelion

[OQF 2-Pounder and SA 47 APX]

I note that the Germans were extremely impressed by the 2-Pounder's performance in the Western campaign of 1940. They rate it far more dangerous than the French 47mm.

This puzzles me somewhat. The SA 47 APX used tungsten rounds and was rated (again by the Germans, though without the benefit of experience) as the world's most powerful antitank gun in 1938.

Is anyone able to describe to me in a not-overly-ballistic manner the easons why the 2-Pounders apparently managed to perform better than the SA 47 APX?

If indeed it did?

Sincerely

Dandelion

[The Maltese Falcons, a fatal decision?]

The decision to scrap the invasion of Malta and use the assigned force - mainly Ramcke and the Folgore - at Alamein instead, is described by Kesselring as the turning point of the African war. A fatal decision he could not persuade Rommel out of. Both men pile up arguments.

We know of course that the presence of the illustrious paras did not stave off defeat at Alamein. So Rommel was apparently wrong.

But was Kesserling therefore right? Would the invasion of Malta have had any prospect of success? And if so, would the loss of Malta have been the deathknoll of the Eighth Army?

Grumbles

Dandelion

[how many battalions in a division]

Originally posted by JoMc67:

A brief discription of a normal combat field Infantry Division TO&E for most major nationalites are as follows.

- 9 Inf battalions ( 3 Inf regiments )

- 1 Engineer battalion

- 1 AT battalion

- 1 AA battalion

- 1 Artillery regiment

Joe

Plus the divisional recon battallion.

Cheers

Dandelion