Steve C

Welcome, thebeis. Release date for SC2 ? So far as I know, nothing is announced. Anyway, not anywhere near soon enough to wait for it, if you are delighted with the SC demo.

That's an excellent point, SeaWolf and I suppose we should accept that premise. The infantry and tank units seem to be reasonably accurate in scale, but there's bombers, individual ships instead of task forces. Then you have the rocket units: a huge corps of Katyushas, V1's, V2's ? No - they are an abstraction. They could even be giant rail guns if you imagine it so. Just like in Panzer General, I never really could figure out what the unit scale was, it seemed to vary from scenario to scenario. The whole Russian front one moment, only Kursk the next. And entire units of just PZIVs, KV1's, etc. ? Not realistic, but who cared, the technology of the different units was cool and the gameplay was compelling. Like SC.

Who wants more complexity ? How many hours does it take to finish a game now in its current "simplistic" format ? What have you got in mind, granth ?

Doubtless they would be reluctant to surrender, but who would supply them ? Would Churchill and the high command continue to issue orders and coordinate the movements of the remaining forces from elsewhere, say a government in exile in Canada ? If you really want to test this, why not create a scenario and try it out ?

Yeah, I agree with Tigleth Piliser and Comrade Trapp. If you beat England before the others come in, you have earned your victory. Under the proposed alternative, are you saying the Russians would come in immediately after the fall of Britain ? Who then would ever attempt Sealion if the reward for victory was a horde of Russians pouring over your lightly defended Polish border ? Or do you mean a couple turns grace to give the Axis time to operate sufficient forces back to the East to counter an invasion ? As for invasions, at 180MPP/turn it's tough to see how the US could build sufficient force to mount a successful attack on Europe without some English navy and air to help protect the transports. Yeah, you get the two BB, but the Germans could set up a cordon of subs and sink enough of the other transports with air to make a successful invasion a remote possibility indeed.

Strangely, my high school was the Presidents. This was in Hyde Park, NY, home of F.D.R., one of the 5 portraits on the SC exit screen. Unfortunately, as the Roosevelt HS football Presidents had just phased out the single wing offense not so many years before my entry into high school (and, no joke, some of the scrubs still wore leather helmets), I am no longer eligible for your tourney. But have fun with it, fellas.

Thanks for the link, some good titles there for sure....One thing though. David Glantz: the man really knows his stuff, no question about it but does anyone else find droning through page after page of "and then the 15th Guards Army, supported by elements of 415th Motorized Divsion and the 566th Gulag Punishment Brigage, launched its attack on Gologniviborsk where the XLVIII Panzer Corps was concurrently relieving Kampfgruppe Rotweiller..." a real chore ? Seems kind of like doing homework. How about some some books which are more the equivalent of SC as opposed to CMBB ? Let me start out with a good one: A War to be Won: Fighting the Second World War by Murray and Millett. This is an operational history, with only as much diplomacy and politics included to properly set the stage. Very well-written and a breezy read, despite the length. Only drawback is not enough maps, but easily remedied with access to any good WW2 atlas. [ February 18, 2003, 10:10 PM: Message edited by: Steve C ]

Getting further off topic, but don't forget: Ferrari, Lamborghini, Ducati and Aprilia. Anybody else find it most curious that it's the three former Axis powers which now make the coolest cars and bikes on the planet ? [ February 17, 2003, 07:14 PM: Message edited by: Steve C ]

Hehe, I have to agree with you Fubarno. But,I am inclined to agree with some of the other posts though, that air is a bit too powerful in the game. And given how expensive it was, perhaps there could be a cap on the number of air units in the game, just as there's a cap on how much MPP you can invest in research. Still, if you didn't do enough earlier in the game to prevent a huge Axis build-up, you're probably gonna bet beaten one way or another. It's been suggested elsewhere to add tactical bombers to the game, sorry I don't remember who posted it. I think there's some real merit to this idea. Let's look at the scale of the units for a minute. If we suppose a tank unit to be a combined arms unit depected at a larger scale and then an air fleet would seem to = a German Luftflotte or American Air Force, with 100's of planes of all categories. However, the presence of strategic bombers and individual carriers in the game negates that concept. Further, the carrier (which played a limited role in the European theater) could carry, we'll round off 100 planes for the sake of arguement, yet these are the equal of the air fleets in fighting power in the game. So I think there's a real place for tac bombers in the game such as the IL-2, JU-87, HE-123, Typhoon, P47's outfitted for close air support, etc. Then you add the effect of three different types of air units and add some interesting choices to the player - do I buy fighters or tac bombers if I can't afford both ? On the topic of jets, I agree also that this research should be restricted to fighters. Not to suggest spoiling the "what if" element of the game, and correct me if I'm wrong on this point fellas, but did anyone develop effective jet bombers even by 1947 ? I don't think so. Edit: Oh yeah, I forgot the Arrado (sp?). Any others ? [ February 17, 2003, 12:59 PM: Message edited by: Steve C ]

LOL, Jersey John. Great story about Midway. . I played those games too but I guess the will to win at any cost was not as strong in my family. On second thought, I'm not so sure. Stupid chess tournament losses tended to put me into a deep funk - one reason I stopped playing seriously. And my wife never has let me live down that time I got really pissed at my stepson for killing off my catapults in Conquest of the Empire by dropping the dice "just so" to get a good roll instead of shaking 'em up like a man. At least, that was my view of it. :mad: Regarding AI, it would seem that if a computer program capable of beating Gary Kasparov can be written, that we should at some point see some outstanding AI in the wargaming scene as well. Of course, who knows how many man hours went into defeating Kasparov on a mere 64 squares vs. how many hexes in SC ? Working on his own, I have to salute Hubert for making it as good as he did. Yeah, I have played a lot of strategy games as well. Funny how much time I spent enjoying Civ 2 and when I bought Civ3 doing things like upgrading the sewer system in East Bumf*ck to reduce citizen unrest just bore the hell out of me now. Ditto frantically trying to rebuild my burning docks in Age of Empires as they got trashed by hordes of blue AI galleys. I'm thinking, "Damn, this sucks ! How can people enjoy playing something like this" :confused: I liked the original Panzer General a lot, but can't be bothered to play in DOS these days. The game's AI seemed okay, capable of local tactical surprises but was never capable of mounting anything like a coherent offensive. Guess that's why you always got to attack and the computer defend. Anyhow to end the long ramble, I'm still hungry for some more operational level action. Just ordered Panzer Campaigns: Smolensk '41 and I'll see how that plays. Reportedly the AI is quite good. [ February 14, 2003, 11:48 PM: Message edited by: Steve C ]

How do you do that ? I don't see any option to save in the other format. If you use the same file name, then it allows you to load it either as PBEM or TCP/IP ?

Just curious, Liam. Why do you say that PBEM takes the joy out of it ? I agree, things are a lot less spontaneous. But on the other hand, solid play is solid play and there's no way to overturn it once your opponent pulls off a skilled operation. It's still way ahead relative to playing the AI, IMO. I have to agree with KDG about the time commitment issue. How easy is it to continue saved games from weekend to weekend in TCP/IP ? Another thing, are slow players a concern in TCP/IP ? I suppose slowness could be another bad habit from too much PBEM and AI play where you've got unlimited time for reflection. If this is a concern with TCP/IP, how about a "chess clock" function for SC2 ? Players could agree on how much time per move and when the flag falls, your turn ends regardless of whether you wanted to move more units. [ February 16, 2003, 03:01 PM: Message edited by: Steve C ]

Excellent point, KDG ! That does help to eliminate the guesswork. I'll remember that one.

Yes, that's exactly what happened in our game. I think he thought Paris would hold for a couple of turns with the army in there but I took it in one turn. Only his French HQ and one army escaped, the rest vaporized.

Okay, next move and my opponent (another new player) said that his evacuation was a disaster. After he bailed and left only the army in Paris and a corps next to it, I had so many German ground and air units free to encircle Paris and pound it to submission that I took France the very next turn. Due to FOW, I didn't see it, but I have to assume that most of his transports then vanished like Cinderella's coach, drowning his Frenchies. He couldn't possibly have gotten everyone out of Brest in one turn. So the strategy apparently backfired. But perhaps there is some machiavelian strategm afoot here and he is trying to lure me into a disastrous Sea Lion. We'll see. Anyhow, it does seem to be a risky strategy. Thanks for the input guys.

Bullwinkle and Jersey John, Man, you guys are bringing back fond memories of playing AH games in the 60's. My Dad gotten bitten by the bug badly starting with Tactics II. He used to make me play Tactics II and other games with him when I would much rather have been outside playing baseball But I grew to enjoy the games after a while. The ones you mentioned come readily to mind. Afrika Korps had a nice ebb and flow to it as I recall. Yeah, I hear ya on Jutland. I liked it too, but tough on the knees and hard to keep mom from vacuuming up the 5th Battle Squadron right when they were ready to lay some smack down on Hipper's battlecruisers. Bismarck was another good one. The tactical battle was nothing special, but the strategic game with the little screens hiding your ships was ace ! FOW in it's earliest form and lots of fun. Another good one in this genre was Flight of the Goeben, an S&T magazine game, one I have till this day (but nobody who wants to play it with me. ) Remember the Avalon Hill General ? Funniest part was the opponent wanted ads, either nerdish or bellicose in tone, often both. My dad once got roped into a group game of Panzerblitz I think it was, he was assigned an army group and had to make his moves and send them into "headquarters". Anyhow, "the Fuhrer" rapidly lost patience with his tentative handling of his divisions, and cashiered my old man, reaming him out with flaming directives from HQ.

Ace, Sorry, the lure of letting this thread morph into reminiscing about the old AH days has proven irrestistible, but I will try to respond to some of your concerns. Bear in mind that I've only had the game for a couple of weeks myself. Things are a little hard to find on the SC board. I come from a car forum background where everything is neatly compartmentalized in vBulletin. So when I'm on ClubWRX and want to read about brakes, I go to Suspension, turbo threads are on Engine Performance, I can BS about my track experiences on Road Racing, etc. When I came here I was sort of lost, no stickies, no subsets of threads based on common topics. It's 80 pages and hard to find things. But the Mods have spoken on this matter and this is how it's gonna be. If anyone can post links to a few essential "FAQ" threads, I would appreciate it too. But wandering through the pages has an appeal of its own, you never know what you'll find. Units cannot be assigned to specific HQ, aside from placing them near the commanders whom you'd like them to control. The computer does these assignments for you....Supply route has to be tracked back to city (or proximity to a friendly seaport for your ships). The supply capacity of the cities and ports can be reduced by bombing and naval bombardment. Your HQ can help with supply as well as combat, I think. The manual has some tables in it, such as terrain effects on combat, but doesn't explain everything. Anyhow, we're talking $25 here, so how bad of a risk are you running by springing for SC :confused: If the game shipped with a bound manual that didn't kill a $30 inkjet cartridge as the price of admission, I'd consider it a purchase well made at twice the price. [ February 11, 2003, 05:37 PM: Message edited by: Steve C ]

Where is the version with the sinister black stain of Axis domination spreading its tentacles ? Seriously, very nice work indeed, Rommel. Useful to me (new guy) as well as I did not know the troop strengths for some of the minor countries.

Posted by Wachtmeister on the SC World Championship Ladder thread: "Warning to future defenders of France: Don't forget (like I did !) that France falls, no matter what, if Paris falls. The change in v1.06, designed to combat excessive withdrawal of French units to the UK, also prevents any defense of France in depth......" I'm engaged via PBEM against my first human opponent, and he has essayed exactly that strategy [evacuating the French] against me. He did a Dutch gambit, but I was able to break part of his line and also take Antwerp in two turns. He also left two reduced carriers dangerously exposed in the channel and I sunk one with a sub and the other with a cruiser (with a coup de gras by air). I thought he would defend France, but next turn, I was shocked to see his French forces vanish with the "Operate" sound effect. When I approached Paris, it was garrisoned by an army, one corps next to it and everything else was gone. I did not take Paris that last turn as most of my infantry was too far back to come up in time. So Wachtmeister meant that if Paris fell, all the other French troops sill in France would disappear off the map ? I assume that he would have to use transports and not operate them to England, or can they be evacuated either way ? And does some other penalty accrue (other than giving up France too soon) ? It would seem that my failure to take Paris at a stroke means that he might get away with it (or at least 5-6 units out of the two Atlantic ports). Is this a viable strategy ? Personally, I don't think I'd do it - want to make the Germans work for it and knock off a few units. But on the other hand, why not live to fight another day ? [ February 10, 2003, 10:08 PM: Message edited by: Steve C ]

LMAO, Bullwinkle. For me the jury's still out on CMBB. I think I like it, but since I got SC, I haven't touched it. For the creme de la creme of boredom, ever tried playing the monstrous Stalingrad scenario in the East Front series ? :eek: By the time your 200th infantry platoon exchanges fire with the enemy during the first turn, you'll already be snoozing.

Go to the Opponent Finder forum.

That's a little puzzling, Ace. The basics of the game seem real simple and intuitive to me. Yeah, it takes a while to figure out what's going on with the command and supply rules, but essentials of it seem almost as easy as learning chess. LOL, and as hard to master. Once you get the game, the manual explains some of the nuances left out of the FAQ, and of course, this forum is the best resource of all for learning about the game. Didn't play the demo, so perhaps it just leaves you hanging in terms of realizing a final objective. That goal is simple, conquer other states for plunder and resources, smash the forces of your opponent and take over his territories for MPP and force a surrender. Others have done a good job above explaining what's good about the game. Suffice it for me to add that it gives an excellent flavor for the strategic challenges facing the opposing powers in WW2 without locking you into "on-rails" paths established by historical precedent. Often those stragegies do get repeated because they are obviously the soundest, but the game lends itself to creative "all's fair in war" approaches which keep you interested and coming back for more.

No, I didn't need to, the Germans had already beat me to it. Still puzzled, I will investigate by trying it again.

In my latest game against the AI, I tried to invade Denmark and was unable to unload most of my transports, despite my units being active and right next to shore. Did I need an HQ ashore first, Denmark doesn't have enough supply capacity to support the troops ? What is it ? I was able to move down to France and unload there instead.

Yes, the uninstall / re-install worked perfectly, and my files were intact. Thanks, Hubert.