[WWII Speculations Thread]

Hitler actually was thinking along those lines. He thought Spain joining the Axis after the fall of France was an automatic. That was the big stumbling point.

Part of the mistake was assuming British control of Gibraltar was a big issue with the Spanish; it wasn't. They just finished having a Civil War and it would have been the worst possible time for the new Franco government to wage war against a major sea power. Franco would have joined the Axis when he was afraid of a German invasion, which was part of the reason insisted on France giving her the western strip connecting German occupied France with Spain. But even before Hitler went to meet Franco, he'd sent Admiral Canaris, an anti-Nazi, to do the groundwork. Canaris informed Franco that Germany had already sent most of its ground troops east to prepare for the Russian invasion, and Franco, no longer fearing for his own country, stood up to Hitler and refused to join the Axis.

The north African situation was made complicated by Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia being part of Vichy France, which was also outside of the Axis.

They definitely needed to take Malta at the very least before going on to Egypt, but even with that there was the Quatarra Depression in Egypt, which gave an almost insurmountable advantage to the defender by denying the attacker a chance to run the outflanking move always used by both sides in Libya and Western Egypt.

I think the only Axis chance in the Middle East would have been to back Iraq by sending those troops and air units there, getting the British out, thus inflicting an oil problem on Britain while moving to eliminate Germany's, and from Iraq going into the Sanai from the east and through Egypt from the west. I think the British would have been forced to pull out of Egypt, or risk having its army there cut off with the fall of the Suez Canal.

With Britain out of Iraq and Egypt at that point both Gibraltar and Malta become almost academic, to be dealt with later on. Gibraltar, remaining in allied hands, would still have been important in allowing British naval access to the Western and Central Mediteranean for possible future landings.

[1939 Alliance Of Evil Scenario]

Very interesting topic. So far everything I would have said on both ends has already been said by other people.

We all know how much an agreement with either Hitler or Stalin was worth: Hitler broke his nonaggression pact with Russia, and Stalin broke the one he had with Japan.

[trivia]

Excellent question.

And thank you, Baron, for the great prize behind door #2. It's the first Masseratti I've ever owned!

Getting back to the question. It can't be Hitler since he wasn't an officer, till he made himself commander in chief.

First guess Hermann Goering.

-- Second guess Gerd von Rundstedt.

Fingers crossed, I'd sure love to win that private jet.

I know von Rundstedt was retired before the start of the Second World War and became active to command an army group in Poland. So my guess is he was listed as a reserve officer before the war and, becoming a fieldmarshal after the French Campain it's a cinche no one except Goering and Hitler would have outranked him.

Goering -- went to Switzerland after the First World War. During the 30s he held a number of positions and I guess officially he came out of the reserves when he was made commander of the Luftwaffe. As Reichsmarshal I think he was the equivalent of a six star general rank (fieldmarshal being a five star general).

I also considered Rudolph Hess as he was a WWI army officer and I'd guess in the reserves afterward. He was Hitler's closest advisor in the 20s, and became the second man in the Reich (Deputy Fuhrer) during the 30s, apparently never having been recalled to active officer status; but I may be wrong on that. Anyway, he pulled himself out of things fairly early in the war by flying to Scotland.

[trivia]

My guess is George E. Pickett. :cool:

source is:

http://www.encyclopediavirginia.org/Appomattox_Campaign

... On April 1, the arrival of Warren's Fifth Corps at Pickett's rear caused the Confederate general to fall back to an intersection known as Five Forks. There, in what has come to be known as the "Waterloo of the Confederacy," Sheridan and Warren overwhelmed Pickett's forces, losing fewer than a thousand men compared to Confederate casualties of about 3,000. (Warren, a hero of Gettysburg, was nevertheless relieved of his command by Sheridan after the battle. Pickett, whose name was similarly carved into history at Gettysburg, was, like Warren, humiliated at Five Forks. He was famously absent during the battle, attending a shad bake.)

[WWII Global Scenario Idea: Global Bunta]

Sorry Snowstorm, I didn't hear your whistle, just glanced at your sundial and the part marked off for reopening the thread was already behind the shadow, so I figured, uh --

Thank you, it's always good to be posting with friendly posts going up in response. And very glad you like the idea. You've already provided some interesting input at that other place in the low rent district. Sorry, I mean the no rent district without electricity or running water, but me and a few friends call it home.

Fine observation.

My guess is, without a war going on in the west, Stalin would be trying to repair the damage he did to his officer corps. Russians would be building defences around their major European cities and across their vital roads. On the other hand he might have shrivelled up into the no-provocation mode he was in during the spring and early summer of 1941.

I'd go heavily with the preparedness mode. If Hitler were shipping troops and air units out to Africa and Indonessia it would buy a year or more for Russia to prepare for the almost inevitable war.

-- But with the Triple Defense Pact of Germany-France and Britain it would be wise for the USSR to wait till Germany breaks the non-aggression pact. Which would also serve to make the Brits and French ask what their own non-aggression pact with Hitler was worth.

[trivia]

That sounds very good. I think you're right CSS. :cool:

But personally I wouldn't venture an answer till Snowstorm reveals what the prizes are; I'm always suspicious of these behind one of three doors set ups. :eek:

Great Thread, Baron. :cool:

-- Kuni had something similar a few years ago. I remember one question was to name which major Russian city changed hands x number of times in x amount of time. Modesty prevents me from saying who got the correct answer.

[WWII Global Scenario Idea: Global Bunta]

Thank you, BrotherX. Very glad you like it. I think between the two of us we've come up with some interesting twists.

My theory is that brilliant ideas come from sharing thoughts with brilliant friends. :cool:

[WWII Global Scenario Idea: Global Bunta]

Arado,

I agree 100%, sooner or later there would have to be a war between Stalin and Hitler, with Hitler almost certainly starting it.

The main idea here is that Germany would be securing its western door through binding treaties with defeated Britain and France. The Three Power Defensive Alliance would be designed to cover Germany in the event of an attack on the Indies by Japan, and the Congo by the United States -- both in the name of defending those areas independence.

At Buntaland Xwormwood had a brilliant idea he gave me, that Germany cedes both the Congo and Indonesia to France and gets Madagascar in exchange. France agrees to an exclusive trade policy with Germany for all raw materials produced from both Congo and Indonesia.

I think that would be great. Under that clause any country going into those territories would be at war with France, Germany and Britain. :eek: A strange turn around.

He's also convinced me that Germany would not keep that strip of Northern France between Sedan and Flanders. In the novel I'm going to have it turned into a demilitarized zone -- a German rub reminding France of the Rhineland clause in the Versailles Treaty.

-- Anyway, with Germany in the Low Countries and Norway, there wouldn't be a need for occupying any of France.

[Global manual]

Brian the Dane, Appreciated.

Thankful it's in the past now. Time to forget the episode and move ahead with constructive activities.

[WWII Global Scenario Idea: Global Bunta]

Okay, Snowstorm, 24 hours and more have passed. I hope we've got your permission to post here again.

Thanks for suggesting a cooling off period. It was a good idea. My thanks also to my friend Kuniworth for being concerned and coming in to help calm things down.

Enough from me about those posts, they're in the past. Time to move forward.

-- I've been thinking a lot about the historical situation this scenario discusses and am presently working on an alternative history novel with the conditions described here as the basic world situation.

To elaborate a bit:

*In addition to the 10 year nonaggression pact between Germany, UK and France, Germany proposses and has accepted a Triple Defensive Alliance between the three countries.

*Territorial concessions. In addition to the strip of Northern France extending from Sedan to the Flanders coast, Germany also receives the island of Madagasscar. In exchange Germany guarantees the French right to garrison its Eastern Mediteranean territory.

-- Historically the SS extended propossals to Hitler after the fall of France to deport Europe's Jewish population to the island, which, at the time, was a fever ridden hellhole. Additionally it was so far away from Europe as to not figure in it at all. *In the novel it will turned into an SS ruled colony with the luftwaffe and kriegsmarine having bases on it.

*Britain returns the German African colonies it seized in the First World War. In return Germany guarantees Britain's right to garrison Gibraltar, Malta, Egypt and its Middle Eastern territories.

** Japan influences the East Indies to declare independence from Germany and claims to be the new nation's protector. In return the newly founded Indonesia agrees to fill Japan's oil and rubber needs, along with various other essential resource demands.

** The United States influences the Congo to declare its own independence from Germany, pledging to assist it in the event of any foreign power attempting to subjugate the new nation.

-- -- Germany is in the position of trying to keep what should be its two most prized colonies, turned independent nations, one protected by the United States, and the other by the Reich's supposed ally, Japan.

Planning to make Admiral Wilhelm Kanaris (the anti-Nazi head of the Abwhere [sorry if it's spelled wrong] one of the main characters, along with the wartime head of the US special operations. I think his name was Wild Bill Hallahan.

The story will, hopefully, be something like what Harry Turtledove has done with his own alternative history novels.

[WWII Global Scenario Idea: Global Bunta]

I keep hearing that, Kuni, but what exactly have I done other than to try and clarify totally absurd statements being made about a scenario I've been proposing?

At the other thread I was personally attacked. Unprovoked, and I reported it to the moderators.

And no, I don't think we're on the same side. I think another party is trying to get this thread locked or, failing that, to obscure the whole point with a lot of nonsensical jibberish.

So how about not making this a two person issue. It isn't, I'm on the receiving end and someone else is on the flinging end.

[WWII Global Scenario Idea: Global Bunta]

:D

[WWII Global Scenario Idea: Global Bunta]

That wasn't the context of my message. Mine was the Germans certainly weren't waltzing to the sounds of "Ride of the Valkerye" to pick up their precious supplies. The Royal Navy & US Navy ruled the seas. The Germans couldn't even maintain a port in North Africa, let alone taking ships to Western Africa.

If that's your context it means you have no idea of what we're talking about. The scenario is set after a negotiated peace in Europe. Germany is NOT at war. It's sending garrisons to claim the Belgian Congo and the Dutch East Indies after conquering Belgium and Holland.

[Global manual]

Somewhere, this guy decided he's the industry standard on history, gaming, forums, & many other subjects.

Formal complaint lodged with the moderators.

[Global manual]

To Rambo and John, please dial it down a notch. I am asking nicely to the both of you, thanks.

Hubert

I'm going to do my best to ignore him.

-- Thanks for the post in response to what I said about the manual and the game itself. I'd planned on reading the first dozen pages and before I knew it there were toothpicks holding my eyes open and I was pushing to finish it. :cool::)

[Global manual]

I didn't start it. I have a troll posting everywhere I post trying to aggravate me.

In response to his last bit of garbage I can only say for someone who's fond of quoting scripture he seems to have missed this one: He who exalts himself shall be humbled.

As for playing this character, no, I made it clear from the start I play

1) People I like

2) People with class

I don't play

1) Egotistic wind bags.

2) Braggarts who go around defaming their oppenents and others. Go back to (2) above, people with class. Which excludes those who don't have any.

[Global manual]

Right, and all those fascinating mods you created.

[WWII Global Scenario Idea: Global Bunta]

None of that has anything to do with the scenario, which concerns the global situation following the European War ending in 1940 with a negotiated peace; British and French Empires in tact with Germany picking up its Belgian and Dutch colonial marbles. You just posted your usual flag waving crapola. It's too bad you can't post when you actually have something to say.

And, yes, the United States would have been very concerned about Germany controlling the Congo, with its URANIUM, and huge sources of other resources.

-- And much more concerned about Germany occupying the East Indies and selling its oil, rubber, and numerous other raw materials to the Japanese, as well as helping to fill their own requirements.

[Global manual]

Great job, Hubert. Read the whole thing in the wee hours this morning. Very interesting treatments of the military, economic, diplomatic and other elements, such as weather!

I like the concept of reducing France to an Allied Minor and Italy to an Axis Minor, with China on the other side of the world being an Allied Major. At first I thought this was the wrong way of doing it but it makes sense as China fought Japan by itself for several years and had much more endurance than either France or Italy.

Also like many of the unit tweeks, such as actual surface raiders like the Graf Spee and the killer merchantmen. And the distinction between transports and amphibious transports, new elite specialist units. All kinds of excellent concepts.

Particularly liked the editor which looks much more user friendly than the one in Blitzkrieg, but as I said elsewhere, at the time I attempted to make scenarios in that game I had a very slow and limited computer that crashed too often. It ought to be fun working on scenarios here using a new computer.

Glad you mentioned elsewhere that this game will work well on Windows 7.

Back to the editor, it looks as though it may also be possible to create reliable hypothetical game situations for the 1930s and 1920s, such as WWI erupting c.1920 instead of 1914.

But, of course, I'm looking forward to playing your own 1939 campaign scenario a few times before attempting anything with the editor.

Worth the wait, Hubert. Bravo! :cool::)

[WWII Global Scenario Idea: Global Bunta]

Wow! That is absolutely brilliant.

[WWII Global Scenario Idea: Global Bunta]

PowerGmbH I think Russia, Japan and Germany would all go for whatever opportunites the felt they could safely go for. At some point I think two out of the three of them would have to clash.

While Japan might initially have welcomed the opening up, through peaceful means, of Indonesia's resources for their own uses, they'd probably feel like, it being Asian after all, that they had the better claim to it and might even have slipped in before Germany was able to send occupation troops. The reason I think that would have taken extra time is they no doubt would have sent them with a heavy escort as there were Dutch destroyers in the waters.

Of course, it's always a possibility that, without a Free Dutch government in Great Britain, the Dutch troops and ships might have voluntarily acknowkedged themselves as part of Germany.

If the United States were really pushing things, it might then encourage both the Congo and East Indies to declare themselves independent with the United States guaranteeing their soveriegnty. In that case I'm sure Hitler would have sent garrisons strong enough to take the places; the question is whether or not the U. S. would have had naval squadrons waiting to intercept them. If so, what happens?

This plane wasn't ment to be flown by members of the Hitler youth.

The Horten brothers, while still members of the Hitler youth, build and flown their first protoype(s), which was then still a glider.

The Hitler youth encouraged young boys to fly gliders, as they would be this way later better material for the Luftwaffe cockpits.

The glue with coal dust was only used as spackling compound, at least thats what Karl Nickel said, who was responsible for the aerodynamic calculations for the HO229. Reimar Horten claimed in the 1980s that it was used together with paint for stealth reasons. The plane which got after the war into the USA wasn't painted, but thats the one which got tested, so this is at least a very controversial claim.

The HE162 was first ment to be flown by the Hitler youth because of the lack of trained pilots in early 1945.

This plane got rushed into production, therefor its problems.

quote wiki:

"...The difficulties experienced by the He 162 were caused mainly by its rush into production, not by any inherent design flaws.One experienced Luftwaffe pilot who flew it called it a "first-class combat aircraft." This opinion was mirrored by Eric "Winkle" Brown of the Fleet Air Arm (FAA), who flew it not only during post-war evaluations, but went on to fly it for fun after testing had completed. He considered it delightful to fly, although the very light controls made it suitable only for experienced pilots. He wrote about his 162 flights in Wings of the Luftwaffe, a description that has been reprinted in many media over the years.Brown had been warned to treat the rudder with suspicion due to a number of in-flight failures, but this warning was apparently not given to another RAF pilot, and one of the tailfins broke off during the Farnborough Air Show, killing him. ..."

Thank you, BrotherX. I don't think any combat craft was actually designed (originally) with the intention of sending Hitler Youth into battle, but by the time these things were being produced Germany was desperate and, as you said, a lot of Hitler Youth members had glider training so they were used. Their losses must have been hideous; a truly desperate move.

-- Good point about that mixture being used on the 229 for it's ability to disipate radar. I remember them saying that when they were putting the replica together.

I have to look up what the Horten Brothers designed after the war while in South America. I'm sure some people will say they worked on flying saucers. Well, who knows?!

[WWII Global Scenario Idea: Global Bunta]

Kuni, That's great information. So it seems part of the Ribbentrop-Molotov agreement was looking to the Norway operation. Elsewhere I read that during the Narvik operations Sweden allowed small German reinforcement and supply units to pass through its territory. The British had no way of knowing about it and didn't lodge any complaints, but those troops and supplies were vital to the trapped troops holding out till the Brits were forced to withdraw. At some point I've got to find a good book on the Norway Campaign.

I'm starting to wonder now exactly what that Molotov mission to Berlin was about. I'll see if I can find some more detailed information on it.

Arado, You've got it exactly right! There was a show recently, not sure if it was on the Military Channel, National Geographic, or The History Channel, about the making of an H-229 replica. I think it was 3::4 but I'm not certain. It was run through a wind tests and radar scans while atop a high crane, and passed everything exactly the way it was meant to. The engineers who took part in the project said the aircraft was way ahead of anything else from that time. They also said pretty what you did about how difficult and time consuming it was to wrap the material around the curved wood so it wouldn't show properly on radar. I think they found they had to assemble the pilot's area in two halves rather than one piece as they'd expected to do.

I also believe you're right on the plane flown by the Hitler Youth that was considered too unstable to risk trained pilots in. Wonder how they did in them? I think the commentator said there was a positive report menioned somewhere, but the figures themselves didn't survive the war.

A biography of Goering showed how he and Udet used to go on stag hunts with Willy Messerschmitt and other aircraft manufacturers and that's how contracts were decided upon. He was very corrupt and very incompetent, and Udet was only in there because he was Goering's friend. What a way to handle things. :eek:

[WWII Global Scenario Idea: Global Bunta]

PowerGmbH,

... If all are at peace, not even Japan agressive, ...

Japan is definitely aggressive. It's invading China! My point was in this scenario it's getting its oil from the former Dutch East Indies, which is now the German East Indies by right of Germany having conquered Holland and sending a fleet and an army to put the place under German control. I know the Dutch had a small army and a small fleet there under Rear Admiral Dorman (?), who was in command at the Battle of the Java Sea, a total fiasco for the allies combined fleet, which was mainly sunk, and Admiral Dorman killed in action. I don't know if the arriving Germans would have had to fight the Dutch. The scenario assumption is that part of the peace treaty is that Germany gets the Congo and Indonisia from the Belgians and Dutch, respectively. Other colonies of conquered Belgium, Holland, Denmark and Norway, mainly in the Western Hemisphere, are granted their independence so as to avoid entanglements with the U. S..

There would be antagonism between the United States and Japan over the continuing Japanese invasion of China. I believe that puppet emperor, the last emperor of China, was set up by the Japanese in Manchuria. Japan would never have felt totally secure as long as the United States was in the Phillipines, which was scheduled to receive full independence in 1946. Does Japan wait? All things considered, as long as FDR's trade embargoes were bypassed by trading with Germany and the USSR, I believe they'd have concentrated on taking the rest of China; a gargantuan chore in itself. Meanwhile the United States might have attempted to get other nations involved in its Japanese embargo, probably in South America, along with the UK and France, all of which would serve to increase tensions. Also, Japan historically became apprehensive about the United States building up its defenses and naval forces in the Pacific.

I'm not making up Molotov's trip to Berlin. He was sent by Stalin to place demands on Germany because it was felt Russia was getting too little from the original pact signed in August 1939 with Ribbentrop. Russia really did want one of the Norwegian ports, and it wanted to be officially included in Hitler's Axis.

As for why the USSR would want a port on the Norwegian coast in addition to Archangeal and Murmansk, it could be those two were closed off part of the year by ice in the Arctic between themselves and the North Sea. Or, it could be Norway would have been a better location for a Soviet port. Or, it could be Stalin just wanted to get his foot in the Scandinavian door, and that's why Hitler never even responded.

US - German Tensions Because Germany would be establishing itself in The Congo and The East Indies, with probable future influence expanding to South America -- most immediately Brazil and Argentina. FDR was hostile to Hitler and the Nazis from the start of his first administration. There's no reason to believe he'd have been less hostile after Germany had defeated both Britain and France and, even though they still existed, along with their colonial empires, Germany too, more dangerous than ever, was beginning to extend itself globally. I'm sure the United States would have wanted to check that where ever possible. Overall I think it's more than justified to feel there would be a lot of bad relations between the U. S. and Germany.

Snowstorm, I agree. Putting some way of adjusting the level of hostilities between nations would make things more interesting.

Extremely enthused and encouraged by Hubert's post earlier today regarding these ideas, which apparently means it's all possible in game terms. Also, like everyone else, very eager to see what he's coming up with. :cool:

[WWII Speculations Thread]

... I've solved the reasons why your hero Adolf Hitler didn't win world war 2. He refused to use Jesse Owens shoes! So run out to the store, buy a pair & start goosestepping.

-Legend

We're back where we were when you first came in here as an obnoxious selfimportant braggart insulting everyone in sight.

You've crossed the line. I have no idea why, but you have.

And I'm making a formal complaint to the moderators.

[WWII Speculations Thread]

BrotherRambo.

You are beginning to become obnoxious.

When you get off your pulpit we'll have discussions again.

Untill that happens this is the last time I reply to anything you have to say.

-- The dollar does say In God We Trust, but whose God? That's the difference; we are not a religious state but one that recognizes the rights of its citizens to believe, or not to believe, as they see fit.

Anyway, I hope the JJR I like and regard as my online brother returns soon. I honestly can't take the preachy zealot version.