HE rounds r made wrong?

[Jeff Duquette]

For the track throwing thing, high explosives are used by combat engineers as cutting charges for rail road tracks, bridge trusses, etc. So explosives can cut construction grade steel. But fuzing, direction of the blast wave and explosive tamping are all crucial to maximizing target effects or target cutting potential.

Hardened nickel steel -- ala armor steel -- is a considerably tougher material to cut with explosives. Normally line shaped charges are used for this purpose. But track links and pins, road wheels, sprockets, etc are perhaps more vulnerable to the kinetic energy of a direct hit, or blast or splinters. Optics and antennas are also vulnerable to splinters.

But again target effects of HE-shell fire vs. tanks are more typically suppression. Get the vehicles to button up. I don’t think the ToW game in its present form distinguishes between a buttoned up tank and an unbuttoned tank. Of course M-Kills (mobility-kill – be this track related damage or engine related damage) and F-kills (fire power kill – be this optical damage – gun tube damage etc) are always possibilities as are K-Kills (catastrophic kill). It's just that the statistics don't jive with these effects being particularly prevalent. Again, it is why modern artillery has resorted to munitions such as copperhead or ICM. It bumps artillery capability vs. AFVs from one of suppressive effect to one of target destruction.

As with tactical air support, HE shell fire is at best only marginally effective at killing tanks. Does that mean tanks were not killed by TAC air or HE shell fire – no.

[Task]

I've had use for HE shells vs. enemy armor in CM. Close range combat with a PanzerIV short barrel, for instance, easily destroys a T-34 at its side.

I had a similar experience with a King Tiger firing remaining HE shells into a T-34/85 frontal armor at extreme close range. None of the enemy crew exited the tank.

[Jippo]

Originally posted by Jeff Duquette:

[QB] For the track throwing thing, high explosives are used by combat engineers as cutting charges for rail road tracks, bridge trusses, etc. So explosives can cut construction grade steel. But fuzing, direction of the blast wave and explosive tamping are all crucial to maximizing target effects or target cutting potential.

Sure, difference here is that instead of molding a piece for cutting and covering to prevent back blast & directing energy where wanted, we have a HE charge which is actually 5-10cm off the cutting point. Also the energy of HE round is designed to burst to the sides, and not towards the fuse. On top of that, without knowing the exact composition of the steel used in tracks, I very much doubt it is construction grade mild steel.

But track links and pins, road wheels, sprockets, etc are perhaps more vulnerable to the kinetic energy of a direct hit, or blast or splinters.

Depending on the fusing there might not be any kinetic energy of a direct hit as the round goes off, blast is directed to sides mostly and shrapnel surely hasn't got enough power to knock out roadwheel or or tracks themselves.

Of course (depending on the fusing and caliber) tracks could be taken out by HE only, but I would like to see these fellows here describe the conditions where & why:

"You should atleast be able to take out the tracks using HE."

"Cos it is enough to take out tracks, thats why."

Are just simply stupid statements with zero information value.

[Jeff Duquette]

Originally posted by Jippo:

[QB]

yup...i already discussed direction of blast pressure. but of course immobilization does happen on occasion and to suggest otherwise is rather disingenuous. controlled testing reports are the best source of information for assessing HE effects on tank armor and tracks and such.

this doesn't need to be a yes or no issue. it's in between yes and no. HE has zero effects on AFVs -- HE has tons of effect on AFVs. neither -- it has far less effect than "tons of effect" and more effect than "no effect".

yup -- already been covered at least twice in my previous posts.

sure...wouldn't hurt for folks to post anecdotes they have come across along with a precise cite of the reference from which the account is taken. I collected a large number of these sorts of anecdotes years ago. this HE vs tanks thing rears it's head with every new game release within this genre.

[ June 17, 2007, 06:54 AM: Message edited by: Jeff Duquette ]