Briefings

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by aka_tom_w:

Yeah But ....

Will the game model the map?

and will the map be visually reprented in an animation with an Officer of an HQ unit looking over the map?

If not looking at maps? What do HQ units do the rest of the time?

(and can there be animations for those activities?)

(I say in jest BUT, I would like to see the map represented by generic animation of a map IN the game...)

-tom w

I hope not; I'd much rather have the ability to get creative with the briefings and insert custom images.

[ozi_digger]

Originally posted by JonS:

The ability to add various multi media bits and bobs to the breifing is the point, not how any given scen designer chooses to implement that in any given scenario.

I recognised that as the central theme of the thread and just wanted to put stuff in perspective.

The only problem that I see is that you give CMx2 the capability to do wizz-bang briefings and it can be used to create unrealistic or unhistoric effects. The same can be said about a multitude of CMx1 features I s'pose, but be careful what you wish for. A multi-media WW2 briefing (for example) may create the wrong 'look and feel' and be 'gamey' instead of a simulation of a given era.

[JonS]

Right, and that would be an example of poor scenario design, akin to having the Paras at Pegasus Bridge attacked by King Tigers on the morning of 6th June. Or sumfink.

Personally, and in general, I'd like to see briefings presented in a format that I'm familiar with. So, the use of maps, black and white photos, and standardised orders formats. Even when that overall 'package' might not be applicable to the setting. The briefings (should) tell a story, and the multi-media bits are a means to that end.

Some people are better story tellers than others, and that'll always be the case. Still, adding tools to the toolbox enables the gifted and well as the lame.

[ September 18, 2005, 08:07 PM: Message edited by: JonS ]

[Ardem]

I think it could be done to please both people, immersion as well as accuracy.

But I think Company level briefing could be actually more detailed then what we get now in realism stakes. Doubt me ok..

Imagine this, battalion commander drives up a hill, doesn't need a map he view out over the town below, draws in the sand the way he want his companies to move.

So now they are getting a briefing which is verbal, they already have the complete lie of the land as they viewing it in full realism. And they have no written details what so ever.

Now after thinking of that how could you ever say detailed breifings are gamey if anything we actually lack detail.

[ozi_digger]

Originally posted by Ardem:

Now after thinking of that how could you ever say detailed breifings are gamey if anything we actually lack detail.

Whoa, back up a second there. I was referring to the look and feel of a multi media type briefing, not the level of detail.

Let me draw a picture for you. The CMx2 module we're playing is WW2. You decide to play scenario X and open it up. There briefing features a drive-thru of the battlefield, a voice over from your Bn commander, a situation map and a swag of aerial photos. I'm already starting to cringe. Not only have BFC wasted a whole load of effort trying to make it look like MoH or sumfink but you're deviating from historical accuracy as well.

My point is that glamour is only skin deep. Sure I can see a need for the briefing page to be better. And I can see JonS' point - its only as good as the scenario maker. But the more bells'n'whistles it has, is the more a simulation starts to resemble a video game. Be careful what you wish for.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Ardem:

I think it could be done to please both people, immersion as well as accuracy.

But I think Company level briefing could be actually more detailed then what we get now in realism stakes. Doubt me ok..

Imagine this, battalion commander drives up a hill, doesn't need a map he view out over the town below, draws in the sand the way he want his companies to move.

So now they are getting a briefing which is verbal, they already have the complete lie of the land as they viewing it in full realism. And they have no written details what so ever.

Now after thinking of that how could you ever say detailed breifings are gamey if anything we actually lack detail.

You're correct in that the real deal could be more complicated: Here's what an actual one looks like. (Again, WW II)

http://www.deutschesoldaten.com/procedures/opsorder.htm

This is for a German Schützen Company.

6./Schützen Regiment 26 Squadron Command Post, 24 Jun 1942

ORDER FOR THE ATTACK AFTER ASSEMBLY

ON "G-DAY"

Maps 1 1:50,000 Schtschcigry, Pokrowskoje

1:100,000 Kursk, Tim

1:300,000 Stary Oskol

1. Enemy: oral briefing on field fortifications with "Flanders Walls" and bunkers using the enemy overlay. No mines have been identified.

2. II/SR 26: 2

a) coordinated on both flanks, attacks enemy to the west of and in Truchatscheka at morning twilight (G-Day and X-Hour to be announced) from assembly area east of Ssemenowka under supporting fire of all heavy weapons to secure, with the first objective, the southern approach to Truchatschewka and the second objective, Nordhang 247.7 north of Petrischtschewa.

Axes of advance on order. Report according to map 1:100,000. Use compasses to avoid misorientation. Compass bearings on order.

Sunset 19.50-20.45

Sunrise 2.20-3.15

c) Right neighbor I./SR 26

Left neighbor II./SR 21

d) Attached to the battalion:3

9.(sIG)/SR 26

1 platoon of assault guns

3 demolition teams 2./PzPi 40

Support through

I./AR 89

1 mortar battery

1 battery Heavy Projector Rgt. 2

ground support aircraft

combat aircraft

e) commence fire at X-hour (to be announced)

f) next battalion command post location is in the ravine by ruins, thereafter possibly following behind 6th Company

3. 6th Company is on the battalion's right flank next to 5th Company (7th Company in reserve) 4

attached 2 demolition teams 2./40

1 assault gun platoon (2 armoured vehicles) for the 1st objective

one mine sweeping team from 8th Company

1 forward observer I./AR 89

1 platoon leIG 8th Company

1st Objective: crossroads with bunker

2nd Objective: southern approach to Truchatschewka

4. Assembly for attack:5

a) At 22.00 on "G-1" Brakebusch platoon and a heavy MG platoon and one demolition team, moving with combat reconnaissance in depth, reach the forward boundary of the assembly area and organize outposts and dig in with

heavy MG squad Hilmer right

heavy MG squad Lichte left

In the event of a Russian attack, prevent enemy penetration into the assembly area.

The remainder of the company, in order

company headquarters and communications with forward observer and minesweeping team

Löhrke platoon (assault platoon) with one demo team

Lt. Keiler platoon (reserve platoon) and 2 heavy mortars

heavy antitank rifles

after closing by 23.00, dig in, in deep-arrayed attack formation (beside or behind each other on verbal order).

5. Security of the assembly area by heavy weapons and artillery already in place there

6. Course of the attack:6

X-hour Divisional artillery preparation

X to X+4 minutes Mortars on bunkers and positions to 6th Company's front

X and 1 to X+1-1/2 minutes 1 battery of heavy projectors on obstacles in front of 5th company

X until X+4 minutes 2 batteries III./AR 89 on enemy to 6th company's front

X + 1-1/2 minute Brakebusch platoon begins combat reconnaissance

Tasks:

1. Where are obstacles?

2. Where is bunker?

3. Blow or breach the first obstacle

X+4 minutes Shift light artillery 100 metres

Shift heavy artillery 200 metres

X+5 minutes breakthrough

departure of assault gun platoon

employment of assault gun platoon

(Löhrke platoon) on order

7. Company aid station in bunker by the ruins

Unteroffizier Donath in charge

a) deliver 10 blankets on G-1 at 19.00 7

platoons establish wounded nests

8. Primary vehicles

a) Krupp supply truck (ammunition)

Motorcycle w/sidecar (Obergefreiter Böhm)

Motorcycle w/sidecar (Obergefreiter Gettkant - medical vehicle)

direction: Unteroffizier Leder (coordinate with Oberwerkmeister (Maintenance Supervisor) Fittkau)

Empty vehicles

battalion leader Lt. von Quast 8

company leader Wachtmeister Berger

March order: armoured portions I./SR 26

applicable vehicles of the tank regiment

remainder of I. Battalion with combat trains

remainder of II./SR 26 with combat trains

9. Illumination level V 9

Meaning of pyrotechnic signals:

white - - we are here

shot in a specific direction - - there, enemy pocket of resistance

red - - enemy attacking, request artillery

green - - shift fires

violet or blue - - tank warning

whistling starshell - - gas alarm

10. Ammunition reserve:

battalion - in the ravine in the centre of sector. Is marked.

company - 6 carriers with mortar ammunition follow after attack begins

ammunition truck and motorcycle w/sidecar follow by bounds

11. Communications:

before attack begins, via wire to battalion

after attack begins, squad radio between foremost platoon and company headquarters, Gustav device to battalion

12. Prisoner collection point:

Also graves registration at 1st bridge in Ssemonowka 10

13. Attack begins on order

Distribution:

Commander = 1

4 platoons = 4

Trains = 2

War Diary = 1

tot = 8

(signed) Michael

Oberleutnant and Schwadronschef 11

However, not every company action was an attack or had an accompanying Operations Order. In fact, many actions occurred without a briefing whatsoever. The briefing in game is just a tool to communicate to the player the information the scenario designer feels he needs to play the game. You could do it any number of ways - cut scenes are one; especially effective for those operations you wouldn't normally get a briefing for (see Operation Flashpoint for examples of cutscenes).

You don't need to do military briefings, or even briefings appropriate to the period - some scenario designers have written works of fiction to set the mood. You could do it as a comic book, a poem, whatever. As has been suggested, it will be a great way for the creative to come forward and shine, so all I hope is that they are as open ended as possible - the more we can add to it in the way of graphics, animations, sounds, etc., the better.

[Ardem]

Originally posted by ozi_digger:

Whoa, back up a second there. I was referring to the look and feel of a multi media type briefing, not the level of detail.

Let me draw a picture for you. The CMx2 module we're playing is WW2. You decide to play scenario X and open it up. There briefing features a drive-thru of the battlefield, a voice over from your Bn commander, a situation map and a swag of aerial photos. I'm already starting to cringe. Not only have BFC wasted a whole load of effort trying to make it look like MoH or sumfink but you're deviating from historical accuracy as well.

My point is that glamour is only skin deep. Sure I can see a need for the briefing page to be better. And I can see JonS' point - its only as good as the scenario maker. But the more bells'n'whistles it has, is the more a simulation starts to resemble a video game. Be careful what you wish for.

I can understand what your saying, but it is up to the level of skill of the scenario designer.

Ok here is an example of what can be achieved remember this is a OFP briefing cut screen i made

A jeep is driving along the road, crests a hill a guy jumps out and as he walk to the top stops, he says something - Angle changes to a circle of an offshore engagement flotilla and helicopters.

He says a swear word panics get back into his jeep and drives off in a hurry.

This is for immersion quality, no detail in the specifics and prepares the player for wait a minute I in for something big here.

Next move on to the briefing screen which has a map with contours and selected enemy intel known to the 'task force' The briefing details objectives and units.

------------------

As a minimum I think CMx2 needs a place to put a few images, maps, historical photos what ever.

Ideally they could add some immersion factors like cut scenes, but with an option to turn it off so people like yourself can play it just as as straight up sim.

[ozi_digger]

Y'know Ardem, if I had the choice of the man-in-the-jar fart-ars1ng about with what is basically briefing screen eye candy as opposed to developing strat AI, tac AI etc. I think the choice is fairly clean-cut.

BTW, pls avoid phrases such as 'people like yourself...' WTF? What about people like me? Don't look down yer nose at me, mate!

[Ardem]

Temper in check.

People as yourself comment was neither looking down or looking up or looking sideways at you, you stated an opinion about how you felt about not having immersion elements in such as described, I was giving an option how to have it for some people who would like and and some that would not.

I never once started at a person on this forum and I am not going to now. But if you take everything as a personal attack then your going to have a very unhappy forum life.

[ozi_digger]

Don't confuse immersion with personal gratification.

I get immersed in CMx1 without needing a whole lot of gumf.

IMHO making movies for the start of a scenario is just adding another week of your time to what is probably an average scenario in the first place. I mean - its just a scenario...!?

Sure, have the ability to add pics and sounds, whatever.... But the more you ask for the more programming time has to accomodate it. Doesn't matter if you are are genius at putting code together, its BFC that has to accommodate it. Like I said, there are much more important features I'd like to see first.

You can argue to the cows come home and even say 'I know from personal experience at programming that this is easy...' but it doesn't negate the facts:

1. This isn't MoH, CoD or whatever fps attracts the teenagers.

2. Spending weeks on a beautiful, two minute, multi-media briefing for an average scenario won't make it a good scenario.

3. Inevitably you're gonna provide more information than was actually available historically or whatever. I can see it now... googleearth photos as 'aerial recon photos' in a WW2 brief... oh sheesh!

[Private Bluebottle]

Originally posted by JonS:

Personally, and in general, I'd like to see briefings presented in a format that I'm familiar with. So, the use of maps, black and white photos, and standardised orders formats. Even when that overall 'package' might not be applicable to the setting. The briefings (should) tell a story, and the multi-media bits are a means to that end.

Some people are better story tellers than others, and that'll always be the case. Still, adding tools to the toolbox enables the gifted and well as the lame.

S.M.E.A.C.

Situation

Mission

Execution

Admin and Log.

Command and Sigs.

Situation - A brief description of the current situation, providing background as to what has occurred up to this point. It should also talk about intelligence on friendly and unfriendly forces. Known and suspected intentions.

Mission - stated in plain, no-nonsence language what the objective is of the operation.

Execution - How the objective is to be attained. Again in plain, no-nonsence language, detailing the tactics to be used.

Admin and Log. - Details of forces, attached units, logistics and resupply, etc.

Command and Sigs. - Commanders, authority, line of succession, etc. Signals - signals arrangements.

Just about covers it for me. Not bad for over 20 years since I last used it.

Thats what is needed, how to achieve it best is another matter. I don't want or need flashy "movies". I do want to have the ability to add maps, pictures (non-moving) and other types of information that will make me more aware of the situation, rather than some generic movie about some bloke nonchalantly driving a jeep up a hill, jumping out, seeing some enemy forces, swearing and jumping back in his jeep.

[ September 19, 2005, 03:01 AM: Message edited by: Private Bluebottle ]

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by ozi_digger:

Don't confuse immersion with personal gratification.

I get immersed in CMx1 without needing a whole lot of gumf.

IMHO making movies for the start of a scenario is just adding another week of your time to what is probably an average scenario in the first place. I mean - its just a scenario...!?

Sure, have the ability to add pics and sounds, whatever.... But the more you ask for the more programming time has to accomodate it. Doesn't matter if you are are genius at putting code together, its BFC that has to accommodate it. Like I said, there are much more important features I'd like to see first.

You can argue to the cows come home and even say 'I know from personal experience at programming that this is easy...' but it doesn't negate the facts:

1. This isn't MoH, CoD or whatever fps attracts the teenagers.

2. Spending weeks on a beautiful, two minute, multi-media briefing for an average scenario won't make it a good scenario.

3. Inevitably you're gonna provide more information than was actually available historically or whatever. I can see it now... googleearth photos as 'aerial recon photos' in a WW2 brief... oh sheesh!

Whoah....cut scenes are only one way out of about a million to introduce a scenario. I'm not a huge fan of them, but if it was possible to allow objects to be imported into scenario briefings, then why not, for those that want to take a week to do it. Make the briefing screen HTML, and then you can add whatever you want - simple text, a java map with overlays, a .wav file with the briefing done by Gregorian Chant, animated .gif file with X's and O's like a football play diagram, whatever.

Just let the designers choose which media to incorporate.

The Operation Flashpoint cutscenes didn't require any additional coding time to make them user friendly; at least, the burden seemed fully on the player/designer to figure out how to code a lot of it themselves using what was already in the game system - there was no interface to allow them to do it quick and easy, they had to use the same tools as the developers, and modified the game files directly by writing in code.

Or at least, that's the impression I got.

Personally, I don't think cut scenes would work in the CM format, though if someone wanted to, say, do a black and white film to simulate gun camera footage or something and provide a link to it in the scenario briefing file, I say why not, it all goes to immersion. The Operation Flashpoint world was so much bigger, and personal, due to the 1st Person perspective, though, that a true cut scene seems a lot more germaine to that genre than CM. At least, to me.

[ozi_digger]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Make the briefing screen HTML, and then you can add whatever you want - simple text, a java map with overlays, a .wav file with the briefing done by Gregorian Chant, animated .gif file with X's and O's like a football play diagram, whatever.

[razz]I hate to say we are sometimes on the same wavelength MD[/razz], but I was actually thinking HTML briefing screen would be the way to go because it offers the most flexible options.

(BTW you forgot Flash as a presentation medium)

But, would there be licencing difficulties? (M$ and all that).

[Ardem]

HTML will still allow cut scenes (imported wmv) hell I made a couple of movies for meta-campaigns and each person that saw them said they were fantastic.

Personal gratification is very different again, but just saying no for the sake of your own preference would be personal gratification too. catch-22 Mate.

I think your misinterrept what I am saying if you saying MD is on the same wavelength , all I am saying that all these a nice but I would like the briefing area expanded then what it is.

How Battlefront do it or wish to do it, is up to them as long as it is expanded I am happy.

[ozi_digger]

HTML will still allow cut scenes (imported wmv) hell I made a couple of movies for meta-campaigns and each person that saw them said they were fantastic.

Clap clap clap, good work, now where do I pin this little award on that I made for you?

Personal gratification is very different again, but just saying no for the sake of your own preference would be personal gratification too. catch-22 Mate.

Just saying no for the sake of it? Perhaps its you who needs to re-read a few posts. Especially where I accept the briefing system can be bettered but perhaps we should be careful what we want included.

I think your misinterrept what I am saying if you saying MD is on the same wavelength , all I am saying that all these a nice but I would like the briefing area expanded then what it is.

I was referring to HTML being the best format.

How Battlefront do it or wish to do it, is up to them as long as it is expanded I am happy.

I concur up to a point. I still reserve the right to wait to be happy with CMx2 until after I see it.

[Ardem]

Originally posted by ozi_digger:

Don't confuse immersion with personal gratification.

HTML will still allow cut scenes (imported wmv) hell I made a couple of movies for meta-campaigns and each person that saw them said they were fantastic.

Clap clap clap, good work, now where do I pin this little award on that I made for you?

Are you naturally a prick or do you take classes

[ September 19, 2005, 09:12 PM: Message edited by: Ardem ]

[ozi_digger]

Originally posted by Ardem:

Are you naturally a prick or do you take classes

Easy tiger... back up a little there bloke. This thread will be locked before it can get a decent debate going.

I'm not in the business of fantasising what BFC can add to CMx2 to make it better for me. Or to showcase my skills or whatever. I just want a realistic simulation thats not overly commercialised to suit unwashed masses.

Case in point is the constant demand we should be able to add sumfink, with a toggle, so if people like me don't like it I can switch it off. So who says you're the majority and I'm the minority? Who says that development time should go toward a gizmo? Can I still play the scenario if I've switched off "Ubermultimedia Briefings" in the settings screen?

I'm not necessarily saying your point of view is bogus, but lets consider all of the facts, not just the ones that suit the particular argument we're running with at the time.

[Ardem]

I quite happy to do that, but without the personal jives.

Perhaps we both misunderstanding each other, what I am saying it better to have all options in rather then no options at all.

With the ability to turn some options off for people to be happy with what they would like.

But then again its not up to you or I can only provide BFC with some options or ideas they may or may not thought of.

[ September 19, 2005, 09:43 PM: Message edited by: Ardem ]

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by ozi_digger:

I think your misinterrept what I am saying if you saying MD is on the same wavelength , all I am saying that all these a nice but I would like the briefing area expanded then what it is.

I was referring to HTML being the best format.

Actually, HTML is only the means that will let the designer pick "the best format" as it can incorporate sound, video, flash, animation, text, pictures, etc.