Does anyone know if UK troops in Pacific had halftracks?

[MikeT]

Subject tells it all. I would like to know if British/Anzac forces in the Pacific theater, think Burma/India deployed US made/lend-lease halftracks.

MikeT

[Michael Dorosh]

Hi Mike, got your email about this - not sure, to tell the truth. Universal Carriers were used in the Pacific. A few went to the Phillipines where they were supposed to travel to Hong Kong for the two Canadian battalions there, but Pearl Harbor got in the way and the UCs stayed in the Phillipines - I believe they were used by the US Army there.

Other than that, Canadian troops didn't fight in the Pacific (to answer the question in your email) though some did go to the Aleutians after the Japanese had fled.

UK troops were wiped out of the Pacific theatre very early on, well before halftracks were available via Lend Lease.

Australian and NZ troops fought in New Guinea, but most "British" troops after early 1942 fought in Burma AFAICT.

[MikeT]

Great thanks. This seems to explain a few things.

Mike

[JonS]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Australian and NZ troops fought in New Guinea, but most "British" troops after early 1942 fought in Burma AFAICT.

Not quite. 3(NZ)Div (or here for more detail but a slower load) fought in the Solomons until mid-late 44 when it was disbanded. Many of the soldiers were then sent to Italy to reinforce 2(NZ)Div.

However, to answer the question, it doesn't look like they had halftracks

Regards

JonS

[ October 07, 2003, 08:50 PM: Message edited by: JonS ]

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Other than that, Canadian troops didn't fight in the Pacific (to answer the question in your email) though some did go to the Aleutians after the Japanese had fled.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that at least a Canadian division and I think as much as a corps was on the way to participate in the invasion of Honshu had it occurred. There might also have been an escort carrier or two and some other RCN ships involved too.

Michael

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Other than that, Canadian troops didn't fight in the Pacific (to answer the question in your email) though some did go to the Aleutians after the Japanese had fled.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that at least a Canadian division and I think as much as a corps was on the way to participate in the invasion of Honshu had it occurred. There might also have been an escort carrier or two and some other RCN ships involved too.

Michael </font>

[Private Bluebottle]

I think the problem is that when Americans think of the Pacific war, they call it the PTO, which in reality was only a subset of the entire war against Japan.

That war was made up of (from the Commonwealth perspective) SEAC - South East Asia Command - from India to Singapore; South West Pacific Theatre of Operations - from Philippines through Indonesia to the Soloman Islands (which were included after about 1943, before then, the boundary was as far as New Guinea IIRC) and the Pacific Theatre itself, which covered the south and central pacific from the Solomans (originally) up to Japan.

And to answer the original question, there were no British troops involved in the PTO. There weren't any Commonwealth troops either. Australians and the Kiwis were in the Solomans, I believe after they became part of SW Pacific Theatre. Therefore, there was no possibility of them operating half-tracks.

Even in the SW Pacific Theatre half-tracks were very rare beasts, primarily confined to Australia and used by the US Army and Marines. The Australian Army had small numbers of them but preferred their own local pattern Universal Carrier (primary difference between it and UK and Kiwi versions was the lack of track-warping for steering, reliance being on track braking instead. Externally the major difference was the presence of improved cooling which consisted of a large cooling vent just behind the driver's position and stretching across the width of the body and provision for mounting a Vickers MMG in the front cockpit, rather than a Bren, as standard).

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Private Bluebottle:

...South West Pacific Theatre of Operations - from Philippines through Indonesia to the Soloman Islands (which were included after about 1943, before then, the boundary was as far as New Guinea IIRC)...

It originally included Bougainville. Then the line was shifted westward so that SoPac forces could be used to invade that island. Later on, the line was shifted eastward once again, this time to include the entire Solomons, if I have it all right.

...and the Pacific Theatre itself, which covered the south and central pacific from the Solomans (originally) up to Japan.

The southern portion, including Noumea, the New Hebrides, and the Solomons exclusive of Bougainville, plus subsidiary islands were given over to ComSoPac, which was a seperate but subordinate command to CinCPac. Sometime in 1944 (I'm not sure about the exact date) ComSoPac was dissolved and its holdings divided between CinCPac and ComSoWesPac.

And to answer the original question, there were no British troops involved in the PTO. There weren't any Commonwealth troops either. Australians and the Kiwis were in the Solomans, I believe after they became part of SW Pacific Theatre. Therefore, there was no possibility of them operating half-tracks.

Just to make a point, there were personnel from all three countries in the Solomons doing invaluable work as coastwatchers. These men were usually reserve officers in the navies of their respective countries. And they were there before either the Japanese or Americans arrived. But you are right that there is no record and no likelihood of their having operated halftracks.

Michael

[Private Bluebottle]

Michael, you do understand the difference between personnel and troops, don't you?

I'll stand by my statement, no British troops in the PTO, therefore, no British troops with half-tracks.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Private Bluebottle:

Michael, you do understand the difference between personnel and troops, don't you?

Yes, and I wasn't disagreeing with you. That's why I began with the phrase, "Just to make a point..." It's a seperate point, see? Then I explicitly concurred on there being no halftracks used by them.

Up late?

Michael

[Dandelion]

Private

Wires seem crossed, let me try and help.

I think Mike wants to know if UK/CW troops used halftracks anywhere at all in what you call "the pacific war" and he and I and apparently a number of Americans somewhere call "PTO".

With "troops" I think both he and Michael means people serving in the armed forces of UK/CW, i.e. any type, branch, number, colour, gender and size of military personnell of any political entity normally among those intended with the abbreviation UK/CW.

So if your ambition actually was to answer the oiriginal question you're cue is already due. Did they?

If you never had this ambition, then please continue with whatever it was you were writing.

PS. If you enjoy this forum and the debates in it, you might want to consider not using an unprovoked abusive tone towards people, like you did to Michael above. A convoy moves by the speed of it's slowest ship and soon enough we'll all degrade to behaving as ugly as you just did. And the forum will loose it's quality, it's flavour and interest, and utlimately will die down. You don't want that, do you? I know I don't.

Dandelion

[Breakthrough]

Ive seen plenty of photos of British troops in Burma on Universal Carriers but never half tracks. Cant say I ever saw ANZAC or Canadian units in either the PTO or CBI Theatres riding them either. Low sealift assets in the SW Pacific and long jungle supply lines in Burma may have been a factor in their absence.

[Stumpff]

As far as I know, UK troops in China, as that's the only location where they played the largest role in the pacific, used Universal Carriers on a limited role, however, jeeps were widley used if that helps at all.

[Michael Emrys]

As regards Burma and halftracks, I'd have to agree that I never saw nor heard of any being used there by any army either. Plenty of American tanks, Stuarts, Grants, and later on some Shermans I think. Probably some CW Matildas and Valentines too, but I am less informed about that. Yes to the UCs; I've seen pics of those. I'm not sure about dates, but my hunch is most of this tracked stuff didn't come in until relatively late in the war, after the fighting moved down from the hills and onto the plains and valleys.

Michael

[MikeT]

I have read and reread posts here and been doing some thinking. What is going on is a CMMOS/CMBO version of the Pacific mod that some friends and I worked up.

I have decided to include halftracks for the UK/Anzac forces for one reason only, Operations Downfall. That was the planned landings on the mainland of Japan.

MikeT

[Private Bluebottle]

Originally posted by Dandelion:

Private

Wires seem crossed, let me try and help.

Anytime. Indeed, they do appear to be crossed on your's and other Americans' behalf.

I think Mike wants to know if UK/CW troops used halftracks anywhere at all in what you call "the pacific war" and he and I and apparently a number of Americans somewhere call "PTO".

"PTO" - Pacific Theatre of Operations - a designation which has a specific meaning, which I attempted to make clear.

"Pacific war" - a more general term which is all encompassing of both the PTO and other designated theatres where fighting occurred between the Japanese and the Allied forces.

Appears to me that you are being sloppy in your terminology.

With "troops" I think both he and Michael means people serving in the armed forces of UK/CW, i.e. any type, branch, number, colour, gender and size of military personnell of any political entity normally among those intended with the abbreviation UK/CW.

"Troops" usually refers to formed bodies of soldiers.

"Personnel" refers to those people who were part of the armed services of a given nation but which weren't formed into troops.

So if your ambition actually was to answer the oiriginal question you're cue is already due. Did they?

I answered it. I pointed out that no Commonwealth troops served in the PTO, therefore no Commonwealth troops could have operated half-tracks there. I also pointed out that outside the PTO, in the wider Pacific War, half-tracks were rare outside of the US Army or Marine Corps.

If you never had this ambition, then please continue with whatever it was you were writing.

PS. If you enjoy this forum and the debates in it, you might want to consider not using an unprovoked abusive tone towards people, like you did to Michael above. A convoy moves by the speed of it's slowest ship and soon enough we'll all degrade to behaving as ugly as you just did. And the forum will loose it's quality, it's flavour and interest, and utlimately will die down. You don't want that, do you? I know I don't.

Dandelion

Dandelion, "abusive tone" is, like beauty, in the eye of the beholder in a written forum. You percieve it as "abusive", I percieve it as terse and informative.

[ October 11, 2003, 10:29 AM: Message edited by: Private Bluebottle ]

[Private Bluebottle]

Originally posted by Breakthrough:

Ive seen plenty of photos of British troops in Burma on Universal Carriers but never half tracks. Cant say I ever saw ANZAC or Canadian units in either the PTO or CBI Theatres riding them either. Low sealift assets in the SW Pacific and long jungle supply lines in Burma may have been a factor in their absence.

Neither Canadian nor ANZAC units served in Burma.

[Private Bluebottle]

Originally posted by Stumpff:

As far as I know, UK troops in China, as that's the only location where they played the largest role in the pacific, used Universal Carriers on a limited role, however, jeeps were widley used if that helps at all.

No UK troops served in China, either, except for Mission 621 (I think that was the designation, I'll have to check) - a Commando unit formed to help the Chinese fight the Japanese and dispatched to China in 1942, via the Burma Road.

Ultimately a pointless exercise but one of considerable high adventure and extreme hardship, going by the account I've read.

[Private Bluebottle]

Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

As regards Burma and halftracks, I'd have to agree that I never saw nor heard of any being used there by any army either. Plenty of American tanks, Stuarts, Grants, and later on some Shermans I think. Probably some CW Matildas and Valentines too, but I am less informed about that. Yes to the UCs; I've seen pics of those. I'm not sure about dates, but my hunch is most of this tracked stuff didn't come in until relatively late in the war, after the fighting moved down from the hills and onto the plains and valleys.

Michael

Basically you're correct, Michael. One Brigade of M3 Stuarts (7 Armoured Brigade) arrived in Rangoon just before the long retreat began and managed, despite all the odds to take one Stuart all the way to India with them (and it returned with them, when they took part in the final offensive to push the Japanese out of Burma!).

No Matildas took part in the fighting in Burma.

A Squadron of Valentines took part in the Arakan offensive(s), unsuccessfully. The primary tank for the Allies were the M3 Grant/Lee. The one theatre where they hang on. Not many M4 Shermans fought there - the preference was for the M3 Grant/Lee because of its roomy hull. The British Army took tanks into the most amazing places during the fighting in Burma. M3 Grants were winched down mountain sides, Valentines fought across flooded creeks.

[Stumpff]

By China I ment, Burma, was tired at the time I wrote it : P

On another note, yes in 621 I believe they used afew jeeps. As far as other nations, aside from the US, using halftracks in the war; I wouldn't hold my breath on it. If they were used at all, they weren't used to any great effect or in any large amount of numbers to be of any significance in the PTO.

[Dandelion]

"Indeed, they do appear to be crossed on your's and other Americans' behalf."

- Actually I am German. But, for the purpouses of this debate, you may consider me roughly the equivalent of an American.

"Appears to me that you are being sloppy in your terminology."

- I can only humbly apologise for my inconsiderate disturbing of your personal sense of order. I know how important order is to many people, and how tormented such people become when others do not observe their rules. There was no offence intended, I simply quested for elusive facts.

"I also pointed out that [---] in the wider Pacific War, half-tracks were rare outside of the US Army or Marine Corps."

- Very good, perhaps you can forward Mike and the rest of us to any source or the like where he and we Americans can more closely examine facts of rarity of halftracks? That's the sole objective of the exercise, we will recall.

"Dandelion, "abusive tone" is, like beauty, in the eye of the beholder in a written forum. You percieve it as "abusive", I percieve it as terse and informative.

- I see. A clash of cultures then. In Australia people like you are called terse and informative.

D