Game Scale vs. Unit Scale

[Konigs]

It seems the geogrphical area is going to be much bigger in SC2. Is there going to be some balance to add additional units. I believe Pzgndr said there was no way to make a solid line on the Eastern front during AAR game.

Except for North Africa(not including EL Alamein), there was always a static defensive line at the front. Albeit a thin one for the Germans.

Just seems like there should be some adjustments be made to the unit scales. If they are the same size(manpower etc..), they will be out of place on a larger map.

Maybe just something to think about. I am patiently waiting just like everyone else.

[pzgndr]

Let me clarify what I was trying to say in my AAR. USSR cannot build enough units fast enough with the production delay to create a decent line in 1941 like is sometimes possible in SC1. And as the Germans push deeper into the much larger Russia on the map now, it is very difficult for either side to form a solid line.

This isn't a bad thing, nor unrealistic. Players just have a slightly lower unit density to deal with, so there should be more "pockets" of activity and room for maneuver. As the Germans withdraw and the front shrinks to the minimum distance between the Baltic and Black Seas, you'll solidify lines again.

[Mr.Dozer]

what about making half units. so when made or reinforced are a max 5. could be used as scouts . scout troops, whatching planes. so with fog your view of the atlantic could be better

[Konigs]

I agree with you pzgndr, "This isn't a bad thing, nor unrealistic." It will affect both sides equally. I just did not want it to be too fluid. Everyone has to agree, North Africa was very fluid battlefront. Much akin to sea battles, mostly decided on manuever and not so much on massed units.

Of course this changed with the insertion of Monty and all his drawn out preparations etc.. and the Torch landings.

I just did not want to see an Eastern front where it is a matter of who can mass some armor and then strike an area where there is no defense and may lead quick easy encirclements. You should have to punch through some static line and then us maneuver and strength to fend off counter-strikes and hopefully make your enciclements before the other side's reserves come into play.

Mr. Dozer makes a good point. Maybe you could split units to hlep maintain a soid front, while these would free up some units to concentrate for your upcoming offensive.

This would be realistic and could also lead to some interesting battles if you werehit where you just stripped line before launching your strike.

Again, I'm just throwing some ideas out for thought. I am patiently waiting for SC2 like every one else.

[pzgndr]

Yeah, another thing is if you want to upgrade units or give them elite reinforcements, you have to pull those units off the line because you can't do those things with enemy units adjacent.

Between bad weather and production delays, there will be opportunities for operational pauses when both sides can regroup and lick their wounds. This really is an interesting effect that players will need to get used to.

[Konigs]

Cool, Pull out experienced units and give elite reinforcements. They become the strike force for offensive while other units hold line. I see where it is going and I like the sound of it.

Quetion, do the Russian forces have greater resistance to bad weather, ie they strike just as hard in winter as Germans might in summer, but mudd bad for both. This is usually how it is in most WW2 games.

[Retributar]

Konigs ...Historically to the best of my knowledge...what you ventured in your question...is just so!.

The German's for example had severe problems with Equipment,Mechanisms,etc freezing up so as to make the Equipment unusable. I heard from a show or somewhere...for example that the Russian's had learned to work in this extremely cold environment by using various types of 'exotic oils' to prevent Machinery & Mechanisms from Freezing-Up!

From what i know...the Russian's had few difficulties operating in their cold environment!...and the German's...had many...as did Napoleone' when he invaded Russia!.

Let's see what some of our investigate Blood-Hound's can come up with as to that Freezing-Situation on the Eastern Front!.

[Mr.Dozer]

i read that in my book, in artic weather the guns stopped working.

Weather

Probably no other factor has been as misunderstood as the effect of the weather on the German invasion. Weather is a neutral factor in warfare. The side that is best prepared to use weather conditions will gain advantage; the side that ignores it will suffer accordingly. The underestimated strength of the Soviet Army brought about the peril of unfavourable weather.

The German forces were not prepared to deal with harsh weather and the poor road network of the USSR. In autumn, the terrain slowed the Wehrmacht’s progress. Few roads were paved. The ground in the USSR was either a very loose sand in the summer, a sticky muck in the fall, or heavy snow during the winter. The German tanks had narrow treads that gave little traction and poor floatation in the mud. In contrast, the new generation of Soviet tanks such as the T-34 and KV were far more mobile. The 600,000 large western European horses the Germans used for supply and artillery movement did not cope well with this weather. The small ponies used by the Red Army were much better adapted to this climate and could even scrape the icy ground with their hooves to dig up the weed beneath.

German troops were mostly unprepared for the harsh weather changes in autumn and winter 1941. Equipment had been prepared for such winter conditions, but the ability to move it up front over the severely overstrained transport network did not exist. Consequently, the troops were not equipped with adequate cold-weather gear, and some soldiers had to pack newspapers into their jackets to stay warm while temperatures dropped to record levels of at least −30 °C. To operate furnaces and heaters, the Germans also burned precious fuel that was difficult to re-supply. Soviet soldiers often had warm, quilted uniforms, felt-lined boots, and fur hats.

Some German weapons also malfunctioned in the cold. Lubricating oils were unsuitable for extreme cold weather, with the result that engines malfunctioned and automatic weapons would not fire. To load shells into a tank’s main gun, frozen grease had to be chipped off with a knife. Soviet units faced less severe problems due to their experience with cold weather. Aircraft were supplied with insulating blankets to keep their engines warm while parked. Lighter-weight oil was used. Gasoline, which powered all German tanks and most of their trucks, was subject to freezing in the harsh winters. Most Soviet trucks and pre-war tanks also used gasoline, but the diesel fuel used in the new-generation of Soviet tanks did not freeze in winter.

A common myth has it that the combination of deep mud, followed by snow, stopped all military movement in the harsh Russian winter. In fact military operations were slowed by these factors, but much more so on the German side than on the Soviet side. The Soviet December 1941 counteroffensive advanced up to 100 miles in some sectors, demonstrating that mobile warfare was still possible under winter conditions.

When the severe winter began, Hitler became fearful of a repeat of Napoleon's disastrous retreat from Moscow, and quickly ordered the German forces to hold their ground defiantly wherever possible in the face of Soviet counterattacks. This became known as the "stand or die" order because the Germans were to stand their ground and fight, or die trying. This prevented the Germans from being routed altogether but inflicted heavy casualties on them from battle and from the cold.

[Mr.Dozer]

i got that info from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Barbarossa

also i read in my book that they took vehicles from all over europe which meant replacing parts were extremly hard some time (stupid idea to atack eh)

[Konigs]

Yeah had alot of French, Czech and other captured equipment. Pure hell on their suply people trying to carry parts. Alot ofunits used captured Russian trucks(American Made) and those little tractors for towing small AT weapons, etc...

Above history pretty much how I have read about it. Pure hell in first winter, coldest in many years, supply stretched and only war materials getting through. Winter ware left on platforms fom Prussia through out Poland. No matter how Hitler thought, need sodliers to win wars. They operate weapons and capture ground.

Getting back to bonus for Russians. Most games donot penalize them at all duringwinter. Will SC2 be the same. if theyare not penalized, do the germans after learning thehard way, at least get reduced penalties inteh following years. I mean they, learned how to fight in the winter from the Russians. IE. Ardennes(Battle of the Bulge.)

Thanks for link Dozer, I will check it out.

[breezeri]

All true, maybe the germans should have lower attack values during wintertime? BUT I think with investing in research (maybe infantry or something similiar) this effect should negate and if it is researched enough it should give a small bonus to attack/defece in snow/mud.

[pzgndr]

SC2 has an event for the first Russian winter. Like partisans, it affects all Axis occupied cities in Russia and reduces their strength. This in turn affects Axis unit supply and readiness.

[santabear]

Keep in mind that one of the problems with SC1 is that the Eastern front becomes a WWI-style battle.

Without stacking, there's no way to open a gap in a solid front (especially without a lot of AF's).

The limit on unit building seems like it will keep the front more fluid and will allow more maneuver warfare--which should make for interesting games.

SB

[Konigs]

Cannot wait to break break through and surround and destroy.