The USSR without the Allies

[SeaMonkey]

With the arrival of the flexible editor of SC2 and the ability to create ahistorical conditions set in the WW2 time period, should we examine this possibility?

Imagine that in the aftermath of WW1, that the nation of Poland is not recreated but simply remains as a puppet, the "Grand Duchy of Warsaw", of the USSR in a greatly diminished territorial state. Since we are aware of the great animosity between the Bolsheviks and the Nazis is it presumptuous to assume that war could have occurred between these two empires without the western allies taking action?

If indeed this hypothesis is viable what and when would a spark have ignited this conflict? Would it have been of any advantage for the western allies to let them fight it out without intervention when the possibility of the USSR demise would have left the Axis free to strongarm the WA later on? Would the Italians have been active against the Soviets, the Turks? And what would the dispositions of the Axis minors resemble?

You are now a high ranking world diplomat in the 1930s, can you shed some light on this evolving European scenario?

[JerseyJohn]

SeaMonkey.

Very interesting premise.

During the early and mid twenties there were some very wild behind the scenes British and French ideas about equiping an army of Germans to got to Russia and topple the Soviet regime.

To say the least it was an impractical plan and didn't consider Poland at all. I guess the assumption was that the Poles would welcome anything that would cause the Bolsheviks to vanish from the earth.

Among other things the Anglo / French theory had it that one or two good shoves and the whole rotten communist house would come tumbling down -- that sounds awfully familiar, doesn't it? When Hitler said it he was no doubt repeating a view that was commonly held at the time.

Before giving an answer to your scenario I'd like to know more of the facts. Does Germany do this after a policy in Central Europe that is historically identical to what it actually did? In that case Poland might have been covered by a multination alliance that included the USSR.

Would the Soviets have been identically estranged from relations with the west? Italy is an interesting question and is hard to answer. I suspect Britain and France would have supported her against Turkey as long as they wound up controlling the Dardenelles -- which was the arrangement they had with Greece in the early twenties except -- Turkey beat them!

In this scenario is the United States ruthlessly competing with the UK and France for overseas influences? And where does Japan stand in relation to the overall situation?

[SeaMonkey]

Alright JJ this is going to be kind of a stretch, but here goes. Assuming the historical cessation of hostilities between Germany and USSR, with Austria-Hungary's previous surrender to USSR, the Regency Council sets up the "Kingdom of Poland" with Warsaw as the capital but without the Danzig Corridor. The Versailles Treaty allows Germany an influential position over Poland but creates a demilitarized zone on the eastern border with the USSR as appeasement to the Soviets concerns of the puppet "Polnische Wehrmacht". The original (prewar) eastern European nation boundaries and configurations remain as they were before "Fall Weiss" with the exception of Poland being an actual ally of the Axis powers, ie. Germany has absorbed Austria and Czechoslovakia. The stage is set for a German ruse into the "Kingdom" under the auspices of Soviet meddling where the two countries (Germany and the Kingdom of Poland) continue on into the demilitarized zone to attack the USSR and reclaim some of the traditional Polish territory deeded to the Soviets by Treaty of Versailles. Timeline? Do the other minors join? Turks remain neutral. Ok,.. Ok.. I admit I need a little more research, and obviously some more scenario development. It was a spontaneous idea.

[SeaMonkey]

Developing.....Perhaps Germany does not re-occupy the Rhineland in 36 in a gesture to reaffirm its commitment to the western European sanctions of the Versailles Treaty with the hope of clandestine support for its USSR forage from France and UK. Germany and Italy also guarantee Turkish neutrality and the USA remains in isolation. Japan quietly begins operations in Manchuria.

[JerseyJohn]

SeaMonkey -- spontaneous ideas are good; remember the old vision of Newton sitting under the apple tree!

Good ideas. Many variations on it. When the new game comes out it will be possible to have several scenarios on the same basic premise, all of which would probably be equally valid as speculative history.