Rocket Artillery Date of introduction wrong?

[Mark Gallear]

I was setting up another June 1941 game and was surprised by the variety of Rocket artillery available to both sides at the start of the war.

German June 1941

158mm Rocket – 36 tubes 108 Ammo

This is presumably the 150mm Nebelwerfer 41 or more properly called the Wurfgranate 41? (could fire He or smoke) Presumably this represent a battery of six – each of which has six launchers. (Ok apart from disagreement over calibre this is ok)

280mm 36 tubes 72 ammo

This is presumably 280mm Wurfkorper Spreng

Incendiary Rocket 337mm.

Is this the 320mm Wurrfkorper MF1 50 that had an incendiary warhead in heavy liquid form?

These two-rocket systems service date starts in 1940 and originally had wooden carrying crates that doubled as launcher platforms. Seen period photos of them been fired singly from the ground or could be mounted on the sdkfz 251 with six rockets or other vehicles including captured French tanks sometimes with only four Rockets. Again only small argument over calibre.

The Germans used Rocket artillery from the beginning of the war. Four Nebelwefer Regiments of the Wehrmacht were among many artillery units that opened fire on June 22nd of 1941 at 3:15am, beginning the Operation "Barbarossa".

Russian June 1941

132mm M-13 64 tubes

82mm M-8 64 tubes

This time we have the luxury of knowing what system is represented.

I have issues with such an early representation as it is known that Red Army used rocket artillery for the first time on July 14/15th 1941, firing at the rail station at Orsza (controlled by the Army Group Centre) on the Minsk-Moscow route. As far as I am aware the Russians at this time had only one battery operational and Stalin considered them a state secret and the battery was carefully guarded by the NKVD. I am not sure what type was used on this occasion but I have always assumed it was the M-13 on Zis trucks

Therefor Russian rocket systems should not appear in the game until July and be very rare on this occasion.

Although it is known that the Russians put a lot of effort into researcher multiple rocket systems in the 1930s and the M-8 ad M-13 were designed in the late 1930s.

I am not sure when Russian Rocker systems start to become common – I would suspect Oct/Nov 1941 at the earliest. Like the Germans a wide variety of launcher platforms were used including T-70 tanks, and Studebakers, Fords, Chevrolets trucks.

Late in war armour-piercing and flare rocket types were produced for the BM-13.

Checked for June 1942 and by then following had been added to lists by then

German Rocket 214mm

Probably the 210mm Nebelwerfer 42 or 21cm Wurfgranate 42 Spreng. If so the date of introduction is to early because it first went into action on the Russian Front in 1943 as problems with the launcher design delayed its introduction. The tubes were reduced from 6 to 5.

Russian Rocket 300mm M-30

These were first fired from their Rama frames in German fashion sometimes diretly at tanks and houses at close range. In March 1944 a mobile launcher was introduced that carried 12 rockets on a Zis–6 truck. Only had HE warheads and the range was much shorter than the other systems limiting its use.

Info from the Achtung Panzer site and WWII: The Directory of Weapons book.

To sum up for 1.02 patch can Russian Rockets be moved back to July at least and be made a bit uncommon until 1942, the German Rocket 214mm is to early if I am right in thinking that is the

210mm Nebelwerfer 42 its entry date should be Spring 43 (February - my guess on this exact month). Pretty please with holly on top.

Maybe also adjust calibre of German Rockets as listed in game.

[ December 17, 2002, 02:10 PM: Message edited by: Mark Gallear ]

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by Mark Gallear:

[snips]

Maybe also adjust calibre of German Rockets as listed in game.

The question here, I think, is whether the CM information displays should show the nominal calibre or the true calibre, where these are different.

I tend to think that the nominal calibre should be shown. After all, nobody calls the British 3" mortar an 81mm, and I've never heard the 15cm Nebelwerfer referred to as the 158mm.

All the best,

John.

[manchildstein (ii)]

--The Germans used Rocket artillery from the beginning of the war. Four Nebelwefer Regiments of the Wehrmacht were among many artillery units that opened fire on June 22nd of 1941 at 3:15am, beginning the Operation "Barbarossa".

--

is it possible those were firing smoke and not he?

i'd always thought the soviets were the first to employ he rockets... obviously that may be mistaken... but the myth is that the germans were 'surprised' by the first soviet use of he rockets as the germans themselves had never seen such a thing...

[Mark Gallear]

I was surprised how early (1940) the German army had used rockets but apparently they had the three rockets (two types) in service by the begining of the Russian invasion. See the Achtung Panzer Site.

http://members.rogers.com/georgeparada/articles/rockets.html

Not so surprised to learn that the Russian Rockets came as a shock because Stalin had kept there development a secret and kept direct control of this limited force in its first battle.

[ December 17, 2002, 02:10 PM: Message edited by: Mark Gallear ]

[manchildstein (ii)]

--The first use of rocket artillery in World War II is often wrongly attributed to the Red Army, while Wehrmacht was the first one to use it. Four Nebelwefer Regiments of the Wehrmacht were among many artillery units that opened fire on June 22nd of 1941 at 3:15am, beginning the Operation "Barbarossa". Red Army used rocket artillery for the first time on July 14/15th of 1941, firing at the rail station at Orsza (controlled by the Army Group Center) on the Minsk-Moscow route.--

ok i see that too... i'm just wondering if those batteries weren't firing smoke as i'd thought somewhere that - until the soviets used rockets - the german rockets were 'chemical mortars' or somefink... but from that website it looks like the germans were firing rocket-he before the soviets ever were...

by the way... i sure would like some ~300mm soviet rocket trucks in the direct fire role in cmbb... a buddy of mine once introduced those in a 'quick battle' in cross of iron... i thought... 'ha, those are useless... too inaccurate...' then those babies started firing and i was hosed... i noticed avalon hill took them out of direct purchase in asl.... teehee