Henri Posted September 7, 2000 Share Posted September 7, 2000 The addon scenario Lelorey can be really painful for the Germans. When I played the scenario against the computer, I got a decisive victory, but when I played against a human, I was massacred; when I played as the US against a human, he got the same treatment. If anybody won this against the following US tactic, I would like to hear about it.The ability of the US tanks to drive through the bocage and the inability of the Germans to do so gives the US player a decisive advantage, especially since the Panthers are outnumbered about 3:1 and all fighting has to be at relatively close range. The historical German "advantage" in the bocage was using a lot of infantry and AT guns, but the Germans have little infantry in this scenario and no AT guns. In this scenario, the Germans have to hold three victory flags with two platoons of infantry and three Panthers. The US force is assaulting with about three infantry platoons, some halftrtacks, and about 10 tanks, including 2 Hellcat tank destroyers that arrive just in time to be thrown into the battle at the critical juncture.The US have 3 roads that lead to the German positions, and one of them hugs the map edge on the US right flank. The initial US deployment places most US forces on this road far from the Germans. As the Germans, I didn't know how experienced my opponent was, and when practically nothing happened move after move, I thought I had to remind him that I held the victory flags and that this was an assault by the US! Little did I know that he was preparing an assault on three sides. Suddenly enemy tanks appeared from all directions simultaneously, and one of my Panthers exploded from a rear hit after dispatching a tank that had appeared at its front to smell out the position. One of my Panthers was left alone near the two main flags facing a half-dozen or more enemy tanks attacking from three sides along with infantry, while my other remaining Panther knocked off a couple of tanks going for the other flag across some fields to the left. One of the infantry platoons was near the latter tank, which meant that only a few squads of infantry were near the other tanks facing the onslaught. The tank near the left flag raced through a field towards a hole in the bocage to help the other tank, but it was to no avail, and the other outnumbered Panther was quickly knocked out, leaving the last Panther alone. It was quickly knocked out by a side shot by a US tank destroyer arriving on its flank before it had time to do much. When I had the US, I used a similar strategy, but this time the 3 Panthers were found all together near the two flags. They managed to knock out the first couple of tanks (one led a charmed life for a couple of minutes as a Sherman and a Priest bounced shells off its side only immobilizing it), but as my horde exited from the bocage from the front and side, two of the Panthers were quickly brewed up.The remaining Panther hid behind some forests, and as my tanks moved in from all sides, he made a run for it towards the German rear, but was bagged from the side as three or four tanks tried to nail it from the side and from behind. We're still playing it, but I guess this will be my first pbem victory It is my impression that the Germans MIGHT have a chance if they take the offensive early and try to catch the US piecemeal with their 3 Panthers. But if the US player realizes this early enough, his advantage of being able to drive tanks through the bocage could still give him a decisive advantage. Anybody win this against a competent human using this rushing strategy? Henri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aacooper Posted September 9, 2000 Share Posted September 9, 2000 I played it double-blind as the US and won, essentially by having a three-pronged attack. Against Panthers, it's essentially a matter of getting those flank shots - one gets 'em every time. After playing, I looked at the scenario using the editor, and the US has a 2:1 advantage in points. I think a more aggressive German strategy is the only way - my opponent was more passive, and eventually you get encircled that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Wilder Posted September 9, 2000 Share Posted September 9, 2000 The scenario is indeed intensely difficult for the German side. That was my intention. 3 Panthers and some infantry against that horde of Allies will test a wargamer's skill. I'd advise staying out of the hedgerows as the Germans except for the infantry. Cover the objectives from good firing positions with your Panthers. Even a very good tactician is going to lose a Panther, I think, probably two before its over. It is a test of skill and courage, no doubt about that...Wild Bill ------------------ Wild Bill Lead Tester Scenario Design Team Combat Mission-Beyond Overlord billw@matrixgames.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echo Posted September 10, 2000 Share Posted September 10, 2000 QUOTE: "The historical German "advantage" in the bocage was using a lot of infantry and AT guns, but the Germans have little infantry in this scenario and no AT guns." I've got a scenario that simulates this. There will be much weeping and gnashing of teeth. I'll e-mail it to anyone who wants a go at it. ------------------ As I walk through the Valley of Death, I will fear nothing, for I am the meanest mother*#*#** in the valley. (George S. Patton) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Wilder Posted September 13, 2000 Share Posted September 13, 2000 I will say that the setup, including the three Panthers is quite historical, Germans trying to hold with little equipment and only a few tanks to rescue the besieged infantry. That is what makes it different from the usual fight from bocage to bocage type scenario. Wild Bill ------------------ Wild Bill Lead Tester Scenario Design Team Combat Mission-Beyond Overlord billw@matrixgames.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Man Posted September 14, 2000 Share Posted September 14, 2000 Read your posts and had to try it.I played as the Germans vs the American AI.Was this supposed to be a replay of Barckmanns corner? It certainly reminded me of that famous story.Only the Americans were coming at me from all sides in this one? Anyway, I had 2 of my Panthers in pretty good Hull down positions and moved the 3rd into the wheat field on the right flank when I saw all the Shermans breaking thru.I lost that Panther but the other 2 survived.I admit all the smoke made it really hairy but I just stayed there and won the battle 53-36 (Axis minor Victory).But there was a Sherman literally face to face with Barckmann when it ended. The only thing that irked me was the way the soldiers got caught up in the bocage.That really hurt me.Every time I tried to reposition a squad they were weary from being entangled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Wilder Posted September 14, 2000 Share Posted September 14, 2000 Yes, that is precisely it, Panzer Man. You know your history! I found it to be a fascinating fight. Barkmann will appear again in a short quick play scenario, Road to Manhay to come out shortly. Wild Bill ------------------ Wild Bill Lead Tester Scenario Design Team Combat Mission-Beyond Overlord billw@matrixgames.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Orr Posted September 16, 2000 Share Posted September 16, 2000 Originally posted by Henri: The addon scenario Lelorey can be really painful for the Germans. When I played the scenario against the computer, I got a decisive victory, but when I played against a human, I was massacred; when I played as the US against a human, he got the same treatment. If anybody won this against the following US tactic, I would like to hear about it.The ability of the US tanks to drive through the bocage and the inability of the Germans to do so gives the US player a decisive advantage, especially since the Panthers are outnumbered about 3:1 and all fighting has to be at relatively close range. I think this is one of those scenarios that requires one side to "play ball" to get something like the historical balance. The real U.S. commanders apparently were advancing against little resistance and probably had no idea that that particular road junction was going to be heavily defended, and therefore there no reason they would have mounted a perfectly coordinated attack against it. I just played it from the U.S. side, and what I did was keep the troops on the left flank (the ones that are lined up and padlocked) in column until something happened--the commander over there likely was an idiot who was trying to move as fast as possible, regardless of the consquences. The troops on the right were deployed, so I used leaping and bounding with them, and scouted ahead with infantry (and I ignored the right victory flag. This was only my second game, and I didn't figure out how to use the "Halt" command till halfway through, plus I forgot I could cut through the bocage, but things seemed to go reasonably historically (I lost a bunch of vehicles, but I knocked out the last Panther on turn 19--on the FOURTH penetrating hit, in addition to the track hit). Scott Orr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Wilder Posted September 17, 2000 Share Posted September 17, 2000 Very good tactics, Scott. One would think with that meager force the Germans would be a pushover. You get a feel for the ugliness of hedgerow fighting in this one. You did well, my friend. ------------------ Wild Bill Lead Tester Scenario Design Team Combat Mission-Beyond Overlord billw@matrixgames.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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