Amedeo Posted November 1, 2002 Share Posted November 1, 2002 In some recent threads about narrow turrets, T-34 vulnerability etc. popped out some info about early (1941) German armour piercing ammo for their guns. In particular: 3,7cm guns The AP shell should be considered 'with large HE burster' (this came up after a comparative analysis by Rexford with other German ammo and Soviet rounds that indeed do qualify for this category) 5,0cm guns Bastables pointed out that before the start of Barbarossa the DAK was already using Pzgr.39 with its 50mm tank and AT guns. In a report dated July 1942 about the performance of the long barrelled 50mm guns on the Pz-III tanks, by 33. Panzerregiment, I found data relative only to tests with Pzgr.38. 7,5cm short (L24) guns The game currently gives those weapon an APCBC round, Actually the short 7,5cm guns should have not the Pzgr.39 that was firtly introduced with the long barrelled PaK 40 in 1942, but a K. Gr. rot Pz. that is an hybrid round in which the cap acts also as ballistic cap. I think that these issues deserve further discussion and data digging. Especially with an eye to the next patch. Comments? Amedeo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rune Posted November 1, 2002 Share Posted November 1, 2002 http://www.wwiivehicles.com/html/germany/guns.html http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/willphelps/Specs-03.htm Both show the 75mm/L24 using a APCBC round. I quote: K. Gr. rot Pz. is listed by some sources as APCBC (Armour Piercing Capped with Ballistic Cap)P34SD-p119 and by others as APC (Armour Piercing Capped) This site shows thousands of rounds made for the 50mm in 1940. Hard to believe none went to the tanks. http://members.tripod.com/~Sturmvogel/GermWeapProd.html Another sire [needs tranlating] that shows the 50mm using pzgr 39. http://www.worldzone.net/art/2dunyasavasi/panzer/panzer3/panzer_iii.htm more information as I find it. Rune Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rune Posted November 1, 2002 Share Posted November 1, 2002 More information on the Panzer III with the 50mm. http://www.achtungpanzer.com/pz8.htm Page 245, Encyclopedia of German Tanks of World War Two, by Chamberlain and Doyle, 50mm L42 uses the Pzgr 39. Rune [ November 01, 2002, 01:39 PM: Message edited by: rune ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rexford Posted November 1, 2002 Share Posted November 1, 2002 Jeff Duquette posted a drawing of 75L24 ammo on the Tankers site and it had an armor piercing cap that was shaped like a ballistic windscreen cap. So the round is APC. Or, even better, as APC/BC, cause the cap has two functions. British rounds that were APC had a square looking armor piercing cap on the nose, and lost velocity like crazy. 75L24 APC has a streamlined cap that functions in two ways, like the earlier post on this thread stated, which is correct. The 75L24 cap protects the nose from shatter by absorbing and spreading the impact forces, and cuts air resistance due to good aerodynamic shape. Alot of authors, myself included, were mislead into believing 75L24 fired APCBC. So don't believe everything that appears in a published book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amedeo Posted November 2, 2002 Author Share Posted November 2, 2002 Rune, thanks for the links. I have no problem in assuming that eventually a 5,0cm Pzgr.39 was manufactured and made available both for the short and long 50mm guns. But the 50mm gun wasn't issued the APCBC round from the start. The point is: what did they have in 1941 in Eastern Europe? Regarding the ammo production stats you provided, I'm wondering whether the table compiler didn't punt under the Pzgr.39 label also APC rounds, like the one you can see in this picture (second from right). Rexford, how would you consider the performance of the hybrid 75mm round compared to a plain APBC (w/o blunt nose) and an APC? Regards, Amedeo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rune Posted November 2, 2002 Share Posted November 2, 2002 I still assume they were used in tanks, between 1940 and taking 1/2 of the 41 production, you come up with 750000 rounds. Now, looking at the production of the 50mm AT gun. 2 in 1939, 388 in 1940, and 2000 in 1941. Let's assume 1/2 by Barbarossa, so 1400 guns. I cannot believe the German produced so many rounds for so few guns. However, my search for more goes on... Rune Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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