Michael Dorosh Posted March 3, 2002 Share Posted March 3, 2002 Dusting off my personal campaign game rules for CMBO so I can offer it up to CMBB players and I am running in to some difficulties, even with the help of Google. I will try and track down some decent books but in the meantime thought I would throw this out for general discussion here. I have read the list of ranks on the Soviet Union Factbook site, unfortunately, there is no indication of what the levels of responsibility were. I am looking at a "typical" Soviet rifle battalion from the Great Patriotic War. What I would like to know is: a) what was the "authorized" rank for command of a squad, platoon, company? What was this likely to be in actual practice? This is not so straightforward as one may think; a British Corporal was the standard squad leader, but in the American army it was a Sergeant who led the squad. Ditto the German Unteroffizier. So I don't want to assume that Russian squads were led by sergeants also, for all I know, it could have been private soldiers in that role. Can anyone advise? Another example is that platoons in the British Army were led by officers (aside from the PSM experiment of 1939-40), whereas most German platoons were led by NCOs. Then you have the question of actual acting rank - in depleted units privates could and did lead squads in all armies, platoons could be commanded by corporals, etc. The Germans drew a neat distinction between a Kompanie Chef (Company Chief) who had the appropriate rank, courses and experience to be a full fledged company commander, and a Kompanie Führer (Company Leader) who was in acting command only and lacked rank, training, or was only intended as a temporary substitute. Secondly, how many awards for bravery did the Soviet Army have? I have identified the Medal for Bravery, Hero of the Soviet Union, Order of Glory and Order of the Red Banner - is it possible to assign an equivalent of these from the many German awards? ie would the Medal for Bravery "equal" an Iron Cross Second Class in terms of what one had to do to be rewarded with it, as well as the relative rarity of the piece? Also, while Heroes of the Soviet Union automatically got the Order of Lenin, how common was it for the Order of Lenin to be awarded on its own to a combat soldier? c) What type of distinctions (if any) did the Red Army have to recognize - parachute training - wounds received in battle - enemy tanks destroyed - trade of employment (not the same thing as type of unit assigned to) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skipper Posted March 3, 2002 Share Posted March 3, 2002 > I have read the list of ranks Keep in mind that it has drastically changed in 1943. Below info is post-1943. > a) what was the "authorized" rank Squad: sergeant Platoon: Jr.Lt. Company: Lt > What was this likely to be in actual practice? For full strength units - as said above. For understrength - anything. There was a case when a military journalist assumed command of a batallion (remnants thereof) - when the combat, chief of staff, zampolit and all company COs were out of action. > So I don't want to assume that Russian squads > were led by sergeants also, for all I know, it > could have been private soldiers in that role. Easily. They would be rather quickly promoted to sergeants though. > Secondly, how many awards for bravery did > the Soviet Army have? A lot more than on your list. I don't have full list anywhere at hand, but you missed even a few significant ones - such as the Red Star and the Order of Lenin. > how common was it for the Order of Lenin to be > awarded on its own to a combat soldier? Common. > c) What type of distinctions (if any) did the > Red Army have to recognize Sorry, no list on this on either. GTO and Voroshilovsky Strelok come to mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Elwen Posted March 3, 2002 Share Posted March 3, 2002 In no other Army did rank title and badges prove to be such a sensitive issue. Since the revolution the Shoulder boards and old rank titles were abolished as symbols of Tsarism and the Class Struggle. All Soviet Officers from Section through to Army level were just called Commander. However in 1935 titles from Lieutenant to Colonel were once again established. In July 1940 General was renewed, followed by the old nco titles. In early 1943 All the old prerevolutionary ranks titles shoulderboards etc were renewed under Stalin's express orders.The strange anomalies of units being commanded by troops of an "odd" rank apparently lasted into early 1942. [ March 03, 2002, 03:11 PM: Message edited by: Simon Elwen ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar Posted March 3, 2002 Share Posted March 3, 2002 I have full color book on Soviet and Russian Military awards (bought in Russia when I visited there) that I am pretty sure will answer your medals question. It's written in both Russian and English translation. However, the text is rather long, much too long for me to write up on this board. What I can do, however, is scan them and put them up on a homepage for you to read. I can even scan the various medals in all their full size glory. They will probably be helpful in future CMBB uniform mods as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted March 3, 2002 Author Share Posted March 3, 2002 Originally posted by Commissar: I have full color book on Soviet and Russian Military awards (bought in Russia when I visited there) that I am pretty sure will answer your medals question. It's written in both Russian and English translation. However, the text is rather long, much too long for me to write up on this board. What I can do, however, is scan them and put them up on a homepage for you to read. I can even scan the various medals in all their full size glory. They will probably be helpful in future CMBB uniform mods as well.I would appreciate that Commisar; actually the major text details I can probably find with a web search, though the few sites I've found so far haven't been a big help. I am trying to get a handle on how common some of these awards were. The German EK II, for example, was awarded in the hundreds of thousands, and some estimates have 1 in 4 German soldiers having it - this brings questions to mind such as "was the Medal of Bravery awarded likewise". Even if all I had was a list of award names, I could probably dig a bit deeper on my own. But any bare bones info you can give me would be a start. There are collector sites where I can get pictures from, so if scanning the photos is a hassle, you can probably save yourself the time, though you are right - I am sure many others would appreciate the info. What collector sites don't tell me is the method for wearing these decorations - location on the uniform, orders of dress (field, garrison, dress, etc.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar Posted March 3, 2002 Share Posted March 3, 2002 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Commissar: I have full color book on Soviet and Russian Military awards (bought in Russia when I visited there) that I am pretty sure will answer your medals question. It's written in both Russian and English translation. However, the text is rather long, much too long for me to write up on this board. What I can do, however, is scan them and put them up on a homepage for you to read. I can even scan the various medals in all their full size glory. They will probably be helpful in future CMBB uniform mods as well.I would appreciate that Commisar; actually the major text details I can probably find with a web search, though the few sites I've found so far haven't been a big help. I am trying to get a handle on how common some of these awards were. The German EK II, for example, was awarded in the hundreds of thousands, and some estimates have 1 in 4 German soldiers having it - this brings questions to mind such as "was the Medal of Bravery awarded likewise". Even if all I had was a list of award names, I could probably dig a bit deeper on my own. But any bare bones info you can give me would be a start. There are collector sites where I can get pictures from, so if scanning the photos is a hassle, you can probably save yourself the time, though you are right - I am sure many others would appreciate the info. What collector sites don't tell me is the method for wearing these decorations - location on the uniform, orders of dress (field, garrison, dress, etc.)</font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted March 4, 2002 Author Share Posted March 4, 2002 It's a deal, Commisar; I'll credit you for any information that makes it onto my GD site. Thanks very much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar Posted March 4, 2002 Share Posted March 4, 2002 Ok, I have scanned the actual text pages. I believe this book was published in Russia back when the Soviet Union was still around. You'll notice the socialist-nationalistic kind of talk here and there. I decided to not include the photos of the decorations since there are many pages of them and my little bit of server space from my ISP would most likely not handle it. I want to put up the scans in original size so that modders for CMBB could resize and modify it themselves without me screwing up the quality. If you or someone else could host the decoration images scans for me and the CM community, I will go ahead and scan those pages as well. I'll send it out to those who can host it. They are pretty neat because they are full color photos of the actual decorations and they are quite large so you can see a lot of detail. Also, some decorations like the Guards badge have several different variations shown so you can see how the decoration evolved from prototype to actual use. There is even a picture of a Honorary German "Broom Handle" Mauser pistol decorated with Soviet Order of the Red Banner. Here is the homepage for the text scans: Russian and Soviet Military Awards Scans By the way, this page will stay up only until late this evening. I need the space for something else so get the scans ASAP before I take them down. [ March 03, 2002, 06:16 PM: Message edited by: Commissar ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted March 4, 2002 Author Share Posted March 4, 2002 Krasnoarmeyets Skipper - this is the list of ranks I have for both pre43 and 1943 and after, with regards to battalion-level ranks In order from the lowest - Krasnoarmeyets Yefreytor Mladshiy Serzhant Serzhant Starshiy Serzhant Starshina Mladshiy leytenant Leytenant Starshiy Leytenant Kapitan Major The similarity to German and English is striking - Yefreytor and Gefreiter, for example. Serzhant and Sergeant, Leytenant and either Leutnant or Lieutenant. Are there other ranks/titles I should know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skipper Posted March 4, 2002 Share Posted March 4, 2002 I suspect that pre-1943 'krasnoarmeyets' is post-1943 'ryadovoy'. Either way, it's equivalent of a private. Other common ranks didn't change in 1943 - they just re-introduced shoulderboards for officers. What did change was ranks of senior officers and political officers. Similarity of ranks to german shouldn't surprise anyone. These ranks came to Russia from Prussia in XVIII century. In 1917 ranks were abandoned, and army men referred to each other by the job, as in "comrade deputy platoon commander". Needless to say, this system instead of simplifyng things, complicated them. So, the prussian ranks were re-introduced in RKKA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skipper Posted March 4, 2002 Share Posted March 4, 2002 http://www.historicalresearch.com/ [English] http://mondvor.iptelecom.net.ua/ordpage.htm [Russian, but exactly what you asked for] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skipper Posted March 5, 2002 Share Posted March 5, 2002 Here goes another link - this one about badges. http://www.trio.ru/antika/sovbadges/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted March 5, 2002 Author Share Posted March 5, 2002 Originally posted by Commissar: Ok, I have scanned the actual text pages. I believe this book was published in Russia back when the Soviet Union was still around. You'll notice the socialist-nationalistic kind of talk here and there. I decided to not include the photos of the decorations since there are many pages of them and my little bit of server space from my ISP would most likely not handle it. I want to put up the scans in original size so that modders for CMBB could resize and modify it themselves without me screwing up the quality. If you or someone else could host the decoration images scans for me and the CM community, I will go ahead and scan those pages as well. I'll send it out to those who can host it. They are pretty neat because they are full color photos of the actual decorations and they are quite large so you can see a lot of detail. Also, some decorations like the Guards badge have several different variations shown so you can see how the decoration evolved from prototype to actual use. There is even a picture of a Honorary German "Broom Handle" Mauser pistol decorated with Soviet Order of the Red Banner. Here is the homepage for the text scans: Russian and Soviet Military Awards Scans By the way, this page will stay up only until late this evening. I need the space for something else so get the scans ASAP before I take them down.Hmm, the link didn't work for me - can you email the scans to madorosh@shaw.ca? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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