1941 German Tactics against Russian Tanks

[kevsharr]

I have read with interest the statement that the short-barreled 7.5cm gun mounted in the stug IIIB is useless against the T-34 and KV-1 in cmbb.So I decided to look in my library for a instance that I remember reading about,I found it in James Lucas's book"War on the Eastern Front"here is an excerpt. "A soviet T-34 made the first move.In an obvious attempt to test the alertness of the german gunner's it was driven down hill and disappeared into a balka.The intention was pehap's to attack from a flank and the crew's of the SP gun's could hear the roar of the T-34 engine as the vehicle traversed the group's front.The roar of russian tank engine echoed from the wall's of the shallow ravine and then increased to a deafening scream as the driver revved up.The T-34 shot out of the balka and the first shot from the 7.5 exploded behind him for the gunner had not allowed for such a rate of speed.The second shot was a direct hit and even though the russian tank maintained it's course for a few second's and even fired off a shot,there was a sudden burst of flame,an explosion and a cloud of thick and heavy black smoke. There was again a short period of silence as both sides waited and then a KV-1 charged down hill firing it's machine gun.The great tank then halted and opened fire with it's main armament,,halted then fired again.A third advance brought it to within 1.500 metres of the german group and then as it drew nearer but still remained on the upper ground an SP opened up.Simultaneously the KV fired and although the russian gun had the higher rate of fire the gun-laying was poor.The second shot from the 7.5 was a direct hit.Only two of the crew were seen to escape.A third soviet tank,another T-34,then made the downhill descent but instead of pressing home it's attack concentrated on trying to drag the KV back into the russian positions. The 7.5 gun opened up and it's fire was supplemented by the howitzer which bombarded the area around the two russian tank's with HE,driving into cover the crew's attempting to fasten the tow ropes.With both tank's immobile the SP had sitting target's and with one round the T-34's turret was blown off and the tank began to burn. Another long pause followed and then a T-34 came down to try a second rescue attempt.This machine to was shot to pieces and brewed up.A fourth T-34 made it's move to rescue the KV,and to cover the charge it made the remaining russian tank's open fire.Their shot's fell short but the 7.5 scored another hit.There was another hiatus in the fighting although the russian tank's milled about the area none of them dared to come down and engage the german who were still suprised that the russian's had not made a mass move or at least attempted to enfilade the german gun's" This was in the autumn of '41 and these were short-barreled stug's.This not only shows the effectivness of the L/24 7.5cm gun but also may illustrate the scarcity of the KV's if they were willing to sacrifice three T-34 to recover it.

[laxx]

most interesting. thanks! anyone with experience with stuG shortnose against T-34s or KVs in CMBB ?

[laxx]

Infantry vs. Russian Tanks

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Scenario: 400x400 map, meeting engagement.Village, Modest trees. Roads leads from Russian portion into the middle of the village (victory flag)

Russian: Regular 2 x t-34s, 1 x KV-1(total points: 333)

German: Veteran 2 squads each with 1xflammer, 1xtankhunter, 1xATR(total points: 114)

Intended purpose of squad members:

- ATR - Achieve Hatch down of Russian tanks

- Tankhunter - Kill the tanks or disable the tanks

- Flammers - Kill immobile tanks and/or backup for tankhunter when out of ammo

I put rushed the squads into 2 locations away from the Victory Flag (VF), one nearer to the russian region and the other nearer the german region. My guesstimate is that the russian tanks will move via along the road to the VF.

I position the 1st squad into houses with covering arc: ATR, Flammer and tankhunter.

After round 2, T-34 spots ATRs and machine guns ATR. Tankhunter took advantage and kills T-34.

Round 3, second T-34 apprears, backs off from the road and tries to flank around the houses.

Round 4, KV-1 appears along the road, Tankhunters throws last mine, KV is immobile, Flammer from Squad 1, flames the bastards and KV dies.

Round 4 or 5 (i forget), second T-34 targets 2nd ATR, and ATR dies. 2nd Tankhunter finishes T-34.

End of Game. 3 tanks splashed. 1 axis killed (ATR).

Observation

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- ATR is pretty lame against heavy armor. I am considering replacing ATR with Sharpshooter. But (11points vs 25 points) is something to consider.

- Tank hunter runs out of ammo pretty fast. Max is 2 heavy tanks but just barely.

Next step.

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- will try with sharpshooters

- will see if the anti-squad can fit into a half-track for rapid deployment.

cheers!

[laxx]

same scenario as above, except for:

- Sharpshooters instead of ATR

- Use Trucks to transport troops to location

Sharpshooters. I suspect Sharpshooters can cause the russian tanks to go into shock, when the Tank Commander is shot. Very often, once the hatch is closed, you can hear the cussing in russian, and the tank will stop moving for at least 10-20 seconds.

I used half-tracks, trucks and Gun tracker. Trucks are the fastest But you will need 3 trucks to move the 2 antitank squads (2 x sshooter, 2 x thunters, 2 x flammers).

during setup phase, embark, click vehicle waypoint, click troop waypoint (where to go once disembark), click go. It is possible for short distances, the trucks can reach the destination, disembark the troops and the troops start running to ambush locations. Allinall, in 3 turns, my troops where hidded and waiting for the tanks, the trucks went off and remains hidden.

cheers!

[laxx]

just to close the loop on Sharpshooters and russian tanks.

tested 3 platoons of russian light tanks: t-60/t-70 of the 1943 variety of tanks.

used about 6 veteran sharpshooters in ambush locations.

the t-60/70 are only manned by 2 persons (driver, turret TC/gunner). once the TC is shot, the whole tank is "shaken" and remain that way for the duration of the whole game. also, if there is no visable threats, the shocked tank remains static and does not move at all.

that way, i was able to finish off the 3 regular platoons with my sharpshooters. too bad the t-60/70 cost as much as a sharpshooter.

[Olle Petersson]

Originally posted by laxx:

My questions:

1) Were sharpshooters often used to kill enemy tank commanders?

2a) Were tank vs tank ambush common in the eastern front?

2b) And were there actual tank battles without combined arms?

3) Are my tactics too gamey?

1) I don't know, but nowadays it's definitely one of the tasks for sharpshooters.

2a) In 1941 I'd say "fairly". Soviet heavies sitting idle looking for some "turkey shooting" as the weaker German tanks try to pass...

2b) Combat with unsupported tanks did occur every now and then...

Tactically the Germans ruled WRT combined arms mobile warfare, and it was really that which helped them overcome the Soviet heavies. This didn't prevent their tanks from outpacing the supporting infantry, especially during breakthroughs, when the Panzers could end up miles in front of their infantry.

The Soviets had their heavy tanks spread in penny packets, and cooperation between armour, infantry and artillery was almost non-existant. Therefore tanks would often lead attacks or even attack on their own.

So the more common would be Soviet armour vs German combined arms.

3) I don't think so...

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What guns did the Germans normally use to knock out the KV tanks?

Here's a list:

88mm FlAK gun

105mm Howitzer, divisional artillery deployed for direct fire.

105mm (aka "10cm") Cannon, corps/army artillery deployed for direct fire.

PaK 38, when available.

The 10cm cannon had the best punch, but the 88 was more common and had faster traverse and higher ROF.

Regular infantry assaults and heavy indirect artillery seem to have been common as well.

Cheers

Olle