The Great (but not über) Finnish Thread II

[JonS]

Originally posted by tero:

How many men to a party ? And how was the actual spotting done ? FO teams going off and directions/observations relayed to the FO party site or to the BQH ?

Typically four men. For the rest, eh. Read Evans' site.

For direct fire/self spotted fire missions ?

No, for use by the FOs if/when required. They always used map/compass/binos. They sometimes used the other stuff.

Please ellaborate.

Silent registration is preparing all the data required to shoot a target, without actually shooting that target. Saves ammo, and preserves the element of surprise.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />However, it does not seem to have entered general service...

Unlike the Korja. </font>

[Triumvir]

JonS, I'm from Singapore and an not-quite-ex-gunner (still have reservist liabilities.) I always liked the 25pdr; it's a nice simple gun that six people can easily manhandle about -- one of my fondest memories was the up-hill 25pdr race.

In Oriente Primus!

[JonS]

Originally posted by Triumvir:

... I always liked the 25pdr ...

That's what pretty much everyone who has crewed one says

[Keke]

überbump

[Ari Maenpaa]

Thanks for the pic Jon. Some comments:

Originally posted by JonS:

Incidentally, I note in the photos Ari has from the museum there appears to be a hand drawn map (as opposed to a hand drawn master then printed copies). Issuing everyone with their own individual hand drawn map doesn't to me sound like a terrific way of going about business. Aside from there being no elevation information, the chances of having more than a few such maps without introducing some major variations would have to be fairly remote.

Like Tero already said, the “hand drawn map” was actually a Finnish artillery plotting board called taso. The actual maps were not indeed some hand drawn doodles. The only thing which really means anything on a taso are the co-ordinate lines. Those hand drawings just make it easier to associate the coordinates with the real terrain, but they are not essential. AFAIK the drawings get added on the taso only if time permits it.

The words written by constant distances are “names” in alphabetical order for making it easier/quicker to pinpoint locations in the co-ordinate.

I took the Artillery Board to be the equvalent of the Korja.

Yep, it took me sometime to realize that. After couple of Google searches I continuously bumped into general pictures of artillery boards and begun to wonder. Perhaps I shouldn’t have used such a close-up pic.

So far I have concluded that the calculations to convert corrections in OT line directly to corrections in GT line were relatively time consuming. The Korja was a tool which made it possible to convert fast. As long as such tool was not in use, it was more swift to keep up a more traditional system in which the FO had information of the firing unit (at least the direction of fire) and gave the corrections based on that information.

Evans states that the RA FO had to know the GT line, so it sounds like the RA actually didn’t use a Korja equivalent during WW2. Could it be that the new CP instrument mentioned in the post war section of Evans’ site is the nearest British equivalent to the Korja?

--

Then some random bits of information seen in the museum. Several things have been already said, but this can be taken as a more official summary

The texts are pretty straight translations. Sorry for my clumsy English. The name Nenonen refers to the father of Finnish artillery, General Vilho Nenonen (1883 – 1960).

About FOs

On open plains and steppes it could be possible for a battery CO to observe all targets in a battle from a single place on high ground. But in typical Finnish terrain that wasn’t an option. For this reason Nenonen attached FOs to the regular infantry formations already in 1920.

About the korjausmuunnin

Nenonen’s goal was to free the FOs from all calculation tasks and move those tasks to the batteries. This was accomplished on July of 1943 when he gave an order of a brand new fire observing method which was based on the korjausmuunnin. The FO was no more required to know the firing unit, it’s location or it’s direction of fire. The observer gave corrections based on his own observation direction like he would have been standing next to a direct firing gun. A single correction command from the FO could be used in many firing units simultaneously to concentrate their fire. If needed it was possible for any man to give correction commands as long as his location was known accurately enough and he could communicate the direction and distance to target or figure out needed corrections.

Nenon camera

On ‘20s only small areas of Finland were mapped. This was something Nenonen was concerned about, particularly because maps were needed in rapid concentration of fire from several batteries. He considered aerial photography the best means to quicken the mapping process. The map production was difficult and slow, because errors caused by a tilt in the camera had to be corrected. To speed up these corrections Nenonen asked Zeiss to build a camera, which would photograph the horizon and terrain simultaneously, but Zeiss thought it impossible. In 1928 Asevarikko 1 build such camera. And because the results were good Zeiss produced the first similar Nenon-camera in 1930. The use of aerial photos made the mapping process three times faster than what it would have been with conventional methods. On ‘30s 3000 square km were mapped yearly. During war time the rapidly produced aerial photo files were essential aid.

Preparation

The preparation for accurate firing in a battery was battery officer’s and calculators’ (2 men) task. Topographical factors were put on the battery board (patteritaso). Firing tables were graphical. Information from weather reports and ballistic preparation was converted to rapidly exploitable form, which was then used in the actual fire solution calculations. The battalion officer commanded and supervised the firing beside his taso.

Survey and meteorological service

For meteorological fire preparation there was a meteorological station at Perkjärvi already in 1923 (Perkjärvi is located at Karelian Isthmus). In 1924 a military meteorological station started operating at Viipuri (Vyborg) and it also trained meteorologists for the army.

In 1924 the Survey Battery was founded at Perkjärvi for providing topographical training. In 1925 separate survey organs were established in the artillery regiments, battalions and batteries. Their task was to create a joint co-ordinate, so that the artillery could operate even without maps. Theodolites, direction circles (suuntakehä – a compass-like device), measuring cables and signposts were used in quick and accurate surveying. The operating speed corresponded to the speed of advancing infantry. FOs got binocular rangefinders. Only in the beginning of the ‘30s were the surveying devices accurate enough for solar- and astro-measuring.

Ari

[Tero]

While going through the RA site lets move on with the general topic of this thread:

I just noticed you get steppe terrain type in the Finnish sector. Is that just a naming/assingment "bug" or are there any differences in "open" terrain types (steppe/tundra etc).

Grassland in general was not exactly the most common open terrain type in the Northern sector.

[JPS]

Thanks Ari, very informative.

[Sardaukar]

überbump again

[Ari Maenpaa]

Different opinions about Finland's participation in the World War II have been posted in these "Finnish threads". For those who are more interested: Professor Emeritus of history Olli Vehviläinen's book of the subject has been recently translated in english by Gerard McAlester. It's name is "Finland in the Second World War: Between Germany and Russia".

Ari

[Tero]

Originally posted by Ari Maenpaa:

Different opinions about Finland's participation in the World War II have been posted in these "Finnish threads". For those who are more interested: Professor Emeritus of history Olli Vehviläinen's book of the subject has been recently translated in english by Gerard McAlester. It's name is "Finland in the Second World War: Between Germany and Russia".

Ari

The ISBN, boy, the ISBN....

I mean for the original version.

[Ari Maenpaa]

Originally posted by tero:

The ISBN, boy, the ISBN....

I mean for the original version.

Sorry, dunno at the moment.

But Palgrave, the publisher of the English translation, has more information

HERE. Even a sample chapter.

I happened to bump into the English version in the Akateeminen Kirjakauppa. Seemed to me that the book depicts Finland in the WW2 quite objectively. The main downside appears to be the relatively high price. But the book can be obtained from the libraries too.

Ari