Anti-tank gun formations available for purchase in CMBB?

[Little_Black_Devil]

I did a search and found nothing related to this, I appologize in advance if its already been covered.

What I'd like to know, is will we be able to "purchase" anti-tank guns in CMBB like we will be able to with Tanks - i.e., in formations as opposed to as individual units?

I suppose I can always "borrow" some poor platoon commander, and perhaps even press his associated platoon into the local defence of a few individual guns grouped together - so that more importantly, the guns have some sort of command element.

Still - this is a piecemeal solution, and indeed nothing says that the platoon commander's troops HAVE to stay with him.

The reason I'm curious to see whether or not we will have access to anti-tank gun formations, is related to some reading I've been doing lately about the Battle of Kursk in particular.

Something that has cought my eye, is a tactic used by both sides, which saw their anti-tank guns employed en-masse, and in dead ground. They would also be under the direction of a single command element, who would delegate a common target for ALL of the guns to fire at, quickly killing any tank or tanks which happened accross this deadly little web.

I think it would be useful for all on-board artillery units (and anti-tank artillery units in particular) to actually have their associated command units with them, which could delegate targets for the whole of the formation. In short - I think it would make sense to make artillery and anti-tank artillery units (as opposed to individual guns) available for "purchase", or use within the game - in addition to the currently available individual guns.

Surely, a battery of anti-tank guns could prove more usefull in some situations, than the same amount of individual guns through the existence of a dedicated command element? Would it not be feasible for a given commander to delegate targets to his battery to engage?

Individual guns should still be available, I just think the option to "purchase" a formation of guns would have its own benefits.

Aside from the additional variety, and perhaps versatility of units, I also think that the availability of Batteries of guns, would make the prospect of scenarios entailing penetrations into an enemy's rear a little more interesting, if not clourful.

Does this interest anyone else?

Thanks

[SturmSebber]

Does this interest anyone else?

Naaaaaah

[Michael Emrys]

LBD, this feature is already available in a somewhat indirect form in CMBO. I can't speak for all the armies represented in the game, but in the case of the Americans, if you purchase a complete battalion of infantry, the heavy weapons company comes with a platoon of three AT guns complete with their own lieutenant.

I agree that it would be nice to be able to purchase something like this without having to buy the whole battalion. But then, can't you do something like this with user-designed scenarios?

Michael

[Patgod]

you can do just about anything with user made senario's i'de still like to see this gun group buyable for QB's though.

[Olle Petersson]

I wholeheartedly concur that it would be nice to have AT units and other heavy stuff available as just platoons, not just as individual teams or part of a battalion.

Cheers

Olle

[Lah]

I would like this feature too.

[Kuma of Finland]

There are some units like this available in lesser than Battalion scale, but only for Axis.

Axis

* Sicherung Heavy Weapons Company

(1 x 81 mm mortar FO, 1 x HMG Platoon (4 x HMG), 1 x AT battery (2 x PaK38, 2 x LMG))

* PanzerGrenadiers Heavy Weapons Company (Motorized)

(1 x 120 mm mortar FO, 1 x FlaK battery (6 x 20 mm FlaK))

* PanzerGrenadiers Heavy Weapons Company (Armoured)

(1 x AT battery (3 x PaK40, 3 x LMG), 1 x Infantry gun battery (2 x 75 mm IG, 1 x LMG), 1 x Halftrack company (6 x 251/9))

* Panzer Recon Heavy Weapons Company

(1 x 81 mm mortar FO, 1 Infantry gun battery (6 x 75 mm IG, 2 x LMG), 1 x PanzerGrenadiers Platoon (Armoured))

* SS units are quite similar to the Wehrmacht units above

* Fallschirmjaeger MG Company

(1 x 81 mm mortar FO, 2 x 75 mm IG, 2 x HMG Platoon (4 x HMG))

* Gebirgsjaeger Heavy Weapons Company

(1 x 120 mm mortar FO, 1 x Infantry gun battery (2 x 75 mm IG, 1 x LMG))

I would also like to see separate gun batteries available for purchase (both CMBO and CMBB). But I'm quite realistic about my hopes here, not actually expecting to see them. I guess CMBB is already finished and in manufacturing process for the mass markets.

/kuma

[KNac]

I guess CMBB is already finished and in manufacturing process for the mass markets.

No. Until it´s not announced that the game has reached GOLD status it will continue under development. Also as other stated in the multyple "SNEAK PREVIEW" threads the game continues under beta status.

However someone could elaborate a bit about AT batteries communications? And how where used usually? Individually (using any HQ/staff unit more for logistics, supplies and transport and positioning) or in a team manner (adding to the said things in-action colaboration in assignament of targets, front coverage, etc).

[YankeeDog]

This seems like a good idea to me.

In general I like the QB system of 'rewarding' players for purchasing historical TO&Es - you get the units cheaper than you would buying them as separate support elements - but it does seem a bit extreme that, in order to get an AT battery, for example, you have to purchase the whole battalion in some cases, and the whole HW Coy in others.

For large (Reinforced Battalion) engagements where you have the points to blow on a whole HW Coy, this is fine, but for smaller QBs, this is a little bit of a problem. IRL, wouldn't the Heavy Weapons company assets often be parceled out but the Battalion commander as he saw appropriate? It seems completely appropriate to me to allow a player to purchase just the AT platoon (or the MG platoon or whatever) of the HW Coy and get a mild discount on 'price', plus an HQ to command them.

Of course, you should get an even greater discount (and a Coy HQ) for buying the whole Company, (and even more for buying the battalion), but as mentioned, this is beyond the point scope of some QBs.

If the AT Gun platoon came with security elements as part of their organic TO&E (like the LMGs in the AT plt in the Panzergrenadiers HW Coy above), this should be part of the purchase.

Just guessing here, but I really doubt it's too late in the process for this kind of change to the game: This would probably just be a few different numbers in a data string and could be done in a couple of minutes; it could also probably be easily done as a patch after release.

Again, I like it. It strikes me as something which would encourage more historially likely purchases in QBs.

Cheers,

YD

[Michael Emrys]

I made a mistake in my earlier post. The AT guns in an American battalion are not part of the heavy weapons coy, but are attached directly to the battalion HQ. Mea culpa. Sorry.

P.S. Another option I would like to have in QBs is the ability to purchase a larger formation, like a battalion, and then selectively delete individual units from it and save some points thereby.

Michael

[Little_Black_Devil]

Thanks for the detailed responses guys!

I know that, you can place an Infantry Platoon Commander in close proximity to an individul AT-Gun, or group of individual guns, and thereby provide the guns with ad-hoc leadership, so as to lend them all of the benefits of being within the command radius of an HQ unit.

I also know that, the expensive way to bring a "complete" anti-tank unit onto the battlefield, would be to purchase it, as an inseparable component of a larger formation (like a Battalion for instance).

I'd just like to see goups of anti-tank guns available in smaller units, available separately from larger formations, and provided with their own integral command unit. Additional security might also be either an option, or a task for other units to fufil.

Imagine if you were about to play a Quick Battle, for about 500 Points. You are on the defensive using an Infantry based force, and the enemy is on the offensive, using a mechanized or armoured force.

Now imagine being able to "purchase" an anti-tank battery, or even a troop of guns with its associated commander. Then, you purchse the rest of your force, which might comprise of some Infantry and some (off-board, indirect) artillery support.

The effect, of the enemy's mechanized or armoured formation getting cought within your kill zone would be a real treat! :eek:

Certainly, this could be used as a tool within the game to teach novice players about the benefits of reconaissance.

The intent here, is not to convey an Infantry Platoon or Company, with a Battery of AT-Guns in support, but rather a Battery of Guns with a Platoon or Company of Infantry in support.

I don't think we always need to include every unit within a battalion for a given battle, just so we can enjoy the luxury of a dedicated anti-tank gun commander.

What if you just want a company sized action? Well, thats never been a problem for the Infantry, just purchase a Company of Infantry and carry on. CMBB will take this concept to the next level with tanks, where tank will now be available as either formtaions OR as individuals.

Why not do the same for AT-Guns?

Yes, they usually belonged to larger formations, but so did tanks. They also were used as reserves to fill the gaps. I'm insinuating that they did at times, move around, and bring themselves into action with little or no immediate support. A perfect (albeit simplified) example of this, was during the Battle of Kursk, where the seemingly endless supply of Russian anti-tank guns moved into gaps to fill them as they were occuring. Much of the time, they were replacing simillar sized formations, usually augmented by some other means of local defence (like machine guns and in particular, anti-tank rifles).

The idea of concentrating anti-tank guns, is discussed in great detail with regards to the Russian anti-tank strong point or PTOP (Protivontankovye Opornye Punkty) in "The Battle For Kursk 1943: The Soviet General Staff Study" by David M. Glantz and Harold S. Orenstein on pages 35-38, 44, 50, 121, 178-180, 299, 301-302 and 314-316.

It is also briefly covered in "German Panzer Tactics in World War II: Combat Tactics of German Armored Units from Section to Regiment" by Charles C. Sharp, as part of the Battlefront Bookshelf's "Nafziger Collection" on pages 81 and 82, where simillar groupings of anti-tank guns were refered to as a "PakFront" or as "Paknests".

These concentrations did occur, without their respective "parent" formations always being present. Thats why I think we should be able to purchase either individual anti-tank guns or units of them - to represent anti-tank guns as formations in their own right, not just as support tools.

Assuming anti-tank guns were made available in this fashion, I would suggest, for the benefit of scenarios dealing with penetrations in depth (which might see field artillery batteries being overrun), that the same option be made available to them (field artillery guns) as well.

Thanks again for your comments.

[109 Gustav]

Well, in CMBB tanks will be organized into platoons, with an "HQ" tank that gives bonuses when the other tanks are in CnC. Therefore, you can buy tanks as platoons, so a platoon of AT guns is also a possibility.

[Michael Emrys]

LBD, I am in complete agreement with you. Whether what you ask for will be possible in CMBB I am doubtful however. It would be nice to have. In addition to the cases you cite, there was the German practice of the PaK front. One certainly hopes that by the time of CM3 this will be incorporated for QBs. In the meanwhile, as has already been mentioned, you can do as you suggest in user-designed scenarios.

Michael

[Guest Mike]

Kursk scenarios with bucket-loads of Sov AT positions will be fun.

IIRC there are 2-man anti-tank teams avaialable with grenade bunches, molotovs 7 AT-grenades available to both sides, plus ATR's, 45,, ATG's, mines, etc.

I'm reminded of a photo of an ATR nest in one of the old WW2 Fact File books - there are a couple of PTRD ATRs visible, a satchel of molotovs, some RPG AT-grenades, a couple of mines, trenches, etc.

Just the sort of thing that you'd NEED a Tiger to assault!!

[Lah]

I would love to see whole preset battle forces available as well. So this could be 1000pt up to say 5000pt with a variety of set forces for each nation within the points available.

I think they could be exellent for ladder play.

[Olle Petersson]

I don't agree on the option to leave parts of the platoon out.

If heavy platoons were available, it should be all or nothing (just like the other platoons represented).

A change in the game engine to make this really worth while would be a stricter chain of command, where teams are just as dependant on their HQ as infantry squads.

There should also be an option to do cross attachments and such during setup.

Nothing of this will be available before CMII though...

Cheers

Olle

[YankeeDog]

Originally posted by Olle Petersson:

I don't agree on the option to leave parts of the platoon out.

If heavy platoons were available, it should be all or nothing (just like the other platoons represented).

Agree. 'group discounts' for QB purchases should end at the platoon level. Allowing players to customize their purchases too much is a bad idea, and defeats the purpose of the point discounts for buying historical TO&E, IMHO.

Once exception: For battalions and companies, I wish there was a way of purchasing said unit 'stripped' of some of the heavy units that would be unlikely to be part of an attack - for example, purchase the American Rifle Battalion without the 57mm guns, but with the rest of the battalion intact. While towed guns certainly can be made use of in an attack (especially if you buy some vehicles to move them), it seems to me reasonable to allow a player to buy a TO&E at the battalion or level without these assets for an attack and still get the a points benefit for buying the whole cow, so to speak.

Of course, you should still be able buy the individual heavy weapons teams separately, but then you don't get the HQ unit and the units cost more on an individual basis.

Cheers,

YD

[Little_Black_Devil]

Well, I think that being able to purchase elements of formations - could be an interesting addition to the game.

Perhaps not allowing the availability of such elements past the platoon level (or battery with repspect to the artillery) might be prudent.

It would be kind of nice to click on a battalion, and then be able to eliminate different elements of it, with the intent allowing players to quickly be able to construct understrength formations OR to single out sub-units (like anti-tank guns for instance) in order to centre either a scenario or a "force" around them. I do think that this kind of unit manipulation, might be better off being constrained to the platoon level of each respective component of a larger formation.

So, within the context of a Battalion as an example, you could either eliminate an entire company altogether or knock the given company down to one platoon, but you could not break it down into individual sections.

I think a modular appraoch like this might be easier to implement, and easier to work with. One day there might very well be an option to further breakdown units into sections, or perhaps even teams or fire teams, but for the moment I don't think that kind of detail is really necessary or worth the development time.

I could be wrong though - thoughts anyone?

[Little_Black_Devil]

I'm still reading on about anti-tank weapons, for both the Germans and the Russians, and again - how both sides used concentrated formations of anti-tank guns with the intent of creating insurmountable kill zones with respect to each others tanks.

As I mentioned above, one might be able to throw together an ad-hoc anti-tank formation of this nature in the editor, where they would use an Infantry headquarters unit co-located with a few guns.

However - it is not currently possible to construct such a force in a quick battle - and it should be.

In a hypothetical CMBB Quick Battle, if you were on the defensive, and chose an Infantry based force, defending against either a mechanized or armoured opponent, would this not be a viable, if not highly desireable option?

Would it not make sense to allow for batteries as individual formations, so that their inherent commander might be able to better influence their conduct in battle?

A battery of guns, regardless of type, can take up a considerable amount of room on the ground. A batteries' Commander is still able to effectively conduct their operations, and for the most part conduct those operations as a single unit, rather than as individual guns. While I don't expect (or want) on-board field artillery batteries to be able to conduct fire missions, I would like to see an entire battery of field guns brought onto one (direct fire) target, or as seperate targets (player's/"commander's choice) in a scenario where enemy armour or Infantry has come into direct view of the battery its self.

Obviously - this idea is more geared to anti-tank gun batteries, but as you can see its availability to other types of artillery would also make sense, including possibly - anti-aircraft artillery, which might have its own ramifications.

Anyhow - I still think this idea has merit and deserves consideration.

From a lamen's perspective, it doesn't seem like a terribly difficult or undeserving feature to add within the game. But thats cause I don't know jack about coding.