Ammo Re-Supply

[Mustang]

Now,

I was running through the WAV files in my CM directory, thinking that the MG sounds would be wonderfull telemarketer deterrents (play them full volume on my computer when they call, LOL)

when I ran across some with my men saying that they are out of ammo. But one said "I need more ammo!" Now that got me thinking... I have seen in the briefing screen, the HQ units are often labeled: (with extra ammo). And, since the biggest HQ unit is only 6 men, and most platoon HQ's have 4 men, I found it odd that they should have as much ammo as the 12 men squads had. So does this mean that my HQ's can re-supply ammo to my belegured infantry squads?

[Fairbairn-Sykes]

No.

And a Battalion HQ in CM has 8 men.

[Michael Dorosh]

The ammo counts for the HQ units is a representation of the ammo for the weapons they currently have; 8 men means ammo for the 8 men only.

[Kuma of Finland]

Originally posted by Mustang:

And, since the biggest HQ unit is only 6 men, and most platoon HQ's have 4 men,

BTW: Battalion HQ is 8 men making it a nice fighting unit already

Company HQ 6 men and Platoon HQ 4 men. Previous information according to what I've seen on game. Might vary in different units/nationalities (???)

But back to the original issue: I would be _more_ than happy to see my troops to scavenge the ammo from the fallen comrades.

<Off-topic> And/or ditch the bloody gun when out of ammo (mysterious inability to use side arms if carrying a weapon such as MG or mortar - have to wait somebody to shoot your poor guys before the dump that thing and start running with blazing side arms ) </Off-topic>

/kuma

[YankeeDog]

Hey Mustang,

Maybe we can make this exchange a little more cordial.

The number you see under "Ammo" when you click on a unit is an abstraction of the amount of ammo it has. CM resolves small-arms fire by "shots" - each shot representing one ammo point usage. The amount of "shots" a squad will expend in one turn of firing depends on a variety of factors, such as how close the target is, level of supression, etc.

So one "point" of ammo for a 4-man HQ unit actually represents about one-third the amount of actual rounds as compared to one "point" for a 12-man rifle-44 squad. The "points" also represent different kinds of rounds - the HQ units ammo "points" include pistol rounds, while the squads' do not. The only thing about the same about them having 40 ammo points is that, if you start them firing on a target from about the same distance under the same conditions, they'll run out of ammo at about the same time.

And unfortunately there is no way of resupplying any unit that has run out of ammo, by sharing ammo with another unit or otherwise, so you can't even arrange for an HQ unit to give over some of it's ammo to a squad on a 2 for 1 basis or something. It is worth noting that a CM infantry unit never completely runs out of ammo - it goes to "LOW" status, meaning that it is on it's last clips/scrounging ammo and/or weapons from the battlefield and therefore will fire only in self-defense, and even then with limited firepower.

Obviously, this system is not perfect, but IMHO it does OK for most of the situations that CM models. One of it's big drawbacks is that it does not model a squad running out of a specific type of ammo. A Volks SMG squad, for example, is all SMGs except for one MG42. IRL, if it spends several minutes firing at a target 300m away, it's going to run out of 7.62mm ammo for the MG42, but still have plenty of 9mm clips for the MP40s. Also, for longer battles (more than 30 turns), though, it would be cool if there was some method of resupply. Who knows, maybe in 3-4 years it will be a feature in the model rewrite. . .

Cheers,

YD

[Fairbairn-Sykes]

Originally posted by Kuma of Finland:

BTW: Battalion HQ is 8 men making it a nice fighting unit already

Although 4 of those 8 men have pistols (the other 4 have some mixture of rifles and SMGs depending on nationality) - rendering them fairly weak at any engagements over 70 meters, lets say.

Some thoughts on Bn HQs:

If you haven't played much, at first glance, it may be tempting to send a battalion HQ into a firefight.

I'd resist the urge. The battalion HQ does a much better job as a spotter for mortars, a provider of combat and/or morale bonuses for MGs, on board tubes, AT guns, FOs, etc. - these 8 guys excel at creating a rallying point for panicked squads (or worse). Late in a battle, you might be able to group 4 or 5 squads (who may have lost their respective platoon HQs) together under C&C of that battalion HQ and, keeping the HQ out of the line of fire, mount a decent localized counter attack or thrust.

However, if you're overrun by enemy forces, a Bn HQ will do a nice job of defending MGs, mortars and other support weapons, as well as beefing up your close combat capabilities... though I wouldn't go out of your way to make sure your Bn HQ gets some action.

I'm not sure what the actual point breakdowns are, but I'm certain a Bn HQ is worth significantly more than any 8 man squad of grunts in terms of victory points awarded to your opponent (in the event that your Bn HQ is KIA...)

[ June 18, 2002, 01:51 PM: Message edited by: Fairbairn-Sykes Trench Knife ]

[Mustang]

Yeah, Yankee Dog, as Clarity showed, not even CM is perfect

Okay, I admit it, I meant COMPANY HQ's have six men. I just thought it odd that they had as much ammo as a 12 man rifle squad, thanks for the info Yankee Dog. And I didn't know that they would never really run dry, thats intresting. I wonder what it means on the breifing screen with the 'Extra ammo' for HQ,s, though. BTS might be able to clear this up? Yeah, ammo re-supply ought to be a feture in the game. Perhaps CMBB might have it... who knows?

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Mustang:

I wonder what it means on the breifing screen with the 'Extra ammo' for HQ,s, though.

If it's in a briefing, that means it is a scenario, as opposed to a Quick Battle, right? Then the "extra ammo" was put in by the scenario designer, as is his option.

Yeah, ammo re-supply ought to be a feture in the game.

It is in a way. If you play a multi-battle campaign, you will notice that your units get resupplied between battles.

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by YankeeDog:

...the HQ units ammo "points" include pistol rounds, while the squads' do not.

GROG ALERT!!!

Not exactly true. Remember, the machine pistols found in the squads use pistol (duh!) ammo. Also, many teams or crews have pistols as their personal side arms.

Michael

[YankeeDog]

Originally posted by Michael emrys:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by YankeeDog:

...the HQ units ammo "points" include pistol rounds, while the squads' do not.

GROG ALERT!!!

Not exactly true. Remember, the machine pistols found in the squads use pistol (duh!) ammo. Also, many teams or crews have pistols as their personal side arms.

Michael</font>

[Stilletto Rebel]

After the First World War, practically all armies armed their front-line officers with long arms to help disguise the fact that they were indeed officers. This is because the enemy would naturally pick off the officer first.

On the Eastern Front it was quite acceptable for German officers to swap their officer's tunics and boots for standard infantry ones and reverse their shoulder tabs (so they were upside down). This is because Russian snipers were such a real threat.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by YankeeDog:

...in order to properly model ammo exchange between a HQ and a squad, you might have to model the time it take to strip one clip and load another. . .

Yep. Gotta get that in. Hope Charles is paying attention.

As a little side note, virtually all of the photos and first person stories of American vets in WWII I have seen show combat lieutanants and captains armed with Thompsons, Carbines, or sometimes a Garand. I don't know what the official TOE was, but it seems from my reading that the combat officers got their hands on more effective firearms than their M1911A1 sidearms somehow.

Maj. General Gavin of the 82nd. Airborne reputedly carried a Garand. Interestingly enough, I have read that American paratroopers often armed themselves with .45s in addition to their regular personal weapon before making a jump. The rationale I have heard is that they could get that out in a hurry if they needed to shoot on the way down or immediately after getting on the ground, as opposed to their rifle (or whatever) which would be secured within their harness. How much truth there is to that I have not yet been able to determine.

Michael

[Kuma of Finland]

Originally posted by Fairbairn-Sykes Trench Knife:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Kuma of Finland:

BTW: Battalion HQ is 8 men making it a nice fighting unit already

Although 4 of those 8 men have pistols (the other 4 have some mixture of rifles and SMGs depending on nationality) - rendering them fairly weak at any engagements over 70 meters, lets say.

Some thoughts on Bn HQs:

If you haven't played much, at first glance, it may be tempting to send a battalion HQ into a firefight.

</font>

[Capricornelius]

I've read that a lot of airborne troopers lost their rifles on landing - as well as ammo, food, etc. - and had to make do with their pistols.