manchildstein (ii) Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 in the game the 20mm has a 6-round clip... just listen.... ack ack ack ack ack ack 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloicious Posted March 17, 2003 Author Share Posted March 17, 2003 Did the Germans have an equivalent HMG to the M2? Or was the next step up from the 7.62 the 14.7mm?(not sure if thats the right caliber) Yes the HMG's are heavy, but the Americans and Russians mounted their heavies on their AFVs. Just seems kind of odd that the Germans didn't do this, at least in the later war. They're tank crews probably could've used it against all those Allied Jabos. I was reading something on Rudel and he said he paricularly disliked the Lend-Lease armour that the Russians used because of the .50 cal. Apparently he was shot down a couple times by them. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little_Black_Devil Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 Well, I double checked the Flak38, Flakvierling38 (Quad 20mm) and the PzIIc sound as played when they fire their main armament in the game. It seems all of them, utilze the same sound file - which, as has been pointed out; hammers off a distinguishable 6 round burst. I could have sworn it was 10 - my mistake. I'm not certain that JUST 6 rounds are being fired. I'm thinking that the generic 20mm .wav file is an abstract for all of the Flak30/Flak38/KwK30/KwK38 series of guns. I think the same file is likely used for some of the Soviet tanks, such as the 20mm shVAK armed T-60. It would seem, that one "burst" - signified by the entire sound file (not individual components of it - i.e. "ack-ack-ack") signifies the expenditure of one magazine. However, what I'm still not clear on, is if the different magazine sizes (for 20mm armed tanks/armoured cars vs. AAA Guns) has been taken into account. I tried to monitor this in game, running a few experiments with a Flak30/38 and a PzIIc. I can see that, on average, the AAA Guns consume more ammunition, and appear to fire closer to the Flak30's cyclic rate 280rpm (rounds per minute). The PzIIc, appears to fire closer to the Flak30's Practical rate of fire, which is 120 RPM. Its difficult to judge accurately within the game, as sometimes, the PzIIc and Flak30 respectively, begin firing at different times. Sometimes, its within a few seconds into the start of the turn, sometimes its a bit longer - which affects how much ammo they use up. I was hoping to use this as a firm means to calculate what sizes of magazines each were using up respectively, but the varrying results make this pretty much impossible. In any event - I'm happy with how 20mm guns are modeled as they are, though out of curiosity I would like to hear from Battlefront as to how the magazines for respective 20mm guns have been or have not been taken into account. Cheers 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auggy Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 Originally posted by Aloicious: Did the Germans have an equivalent HMG to the M2? Or was the next step up from the 7.62 the 14.7mm?(not sure if thats the right caliber) Yes the HMG's are heavy, but the Americans and Russians mounted their heavies on their AFVs. Just seems kind of odd that the Germans didn't do this, at least in the later war. They're tank crews probably could've used it against all those Allied Jabos. I was reading something on Rudel and he said he paricularly disliked the Lend-Lease armour that the Russians used because of the .50 cal. Apparently he was shot down a couple times by them. The Germans didn't have a need for that big of a machine gun. They built their MG's to be placed with the infantry. Basically, from the Machinegun up were the squads. A big cumbersome MG would not be able to keep up with Infantry Blitzkrieg tactics. IIRC the Machinegun round was interchangable with the rifle rounds that regular infatry carried. Again, the squad built around the MG theroy. Keep in mind the M2 was not designed for the Anti-air, anti-inf role. It's main conceptual purpose was for the AT role defeating light armor. (in CMBO) Get a M2 near(within 200M) a half track and see what happens. Try that with a .30 cal and results will be not nearly as good. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offtaskagain Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 The germans did have 13 and 15mm MGs that were mostly used in aircraft. Some did make their way onto infantry mounts, but they weren't especialy common. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manchildstein (ii) Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 Originally posted by Aloicious: Did the Germans have an equivalent HMG to the M2? Or was the next step up from the 7.62 the 14.7mm?(not sure if thats the right caliber) Yes the HMG's are heavy, but the Americans and Russians mounted their heavies on their AFVs. try the spw 251/21 halftrack... it has triple 15mm machineguns... if you can keep it alive it's murder on opposing infantry... goes through ammo like nobody's business... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manchildstein (ii) Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 Originally posted by Little_Black_Devil: In any event - I'm happy with how 20mm guns are modeled as they are, though out of curiosity I would like to hear from Battlefront as to how the magazines for respective 20mm guns have been or have not been taken into account. Cheers indeed the t-60 and the soviet 25mm aa gun use the same, 6-report sound file... the diagram on the previous page is interesting ... my take was that all of the german 20mm guns used 6-round 'clips'... and that for convenience the sound was taken and used for 'all' of the other '20mm' weapons in the game... that picture on the other page does make me wonder if the germans had a 10-round 'clip'... or if it was dependent upon the exact model of gun and the firing platform... also, yes in the game these auto-cannons are represented on the receiving end of the fire by a single shot... ...ideally cm3 will have the 20mm rounds separated and make a tiny witto cratew for each one... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little_Black_Devil Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 Well, to eliminate any confusion, I can tell you unequiviocally that the German 2cm armed tanks and armoured cars did utilize a 10 round magazine. The 20 round magazine simply wouldn't fit within the confines of a turret. The 2cm Flak guns on the other hand - since they were for the most part open air weapons - (not constricted by a turret) - were able to use the larger, 20 round magazines. The only time you would have had a 6 round magazine, is when you only had 6 rounds left in each of the respective magazine types (10 round and 20 round). There simply never was a 6 round magazine for any 2cm gun, whether it was mounted in a turret, or on a Flak gun. I don't know enough about the 2cm shVAK gun used in the T-60 to comment with any authority. What I do know, is the gun was based off of the same gun (or cannon) used in Russian aircraft. In fact, it may even be the same gun - I'm not sure. Either way, it may be possible that the Soviet 2cm gun Gun is belt fed, or perhaps it could be - or was - altered to fire magazines. Perhaps someone with more knowledge about the 20mm shVAK could comment on it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawtin Posted March 18, 2003 Share Posted March 18, 2003 manchildstein II originally wrote: also, yes in the game these auto-cannons are represented on the receiving end of the fire by a single shot... ...ideally cm3 will have the 20mm rounds separated and make a tiny witto cratew for each one... Maybe I misunderstood what you were saying... But in CMBB 20mm cannons definetly fire more than one round. They might create one crater, but at least in the graphical representation multiple projectiles can be seen flying. I'm not sure though how the shots are actually modelled. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little_Black_Devil Posted March 18, 2003 Share Posted March 18, 2003 They're abstracted. The sound, and visible projectiles are simply cues to let you know that the weapon is automatic, and is firing more than one round/projectile. The real question is, what specifically has been taken into account in this abstraction? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manchildstein (ii) Posted March 18, 2003 Share Posted March 18, 2003 Originally posted by Hawtin: manchildstein II originally wrote: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />also, yes in the game these auto-cannons are represented on the receiving end of the fire by a single shot... ...ideally cm3 will have the 20mm rounds separated and make a tiny witto cratew for each one... Maybe I misunderstood what you were saying... But in CMBB 20mm cannons definetly fire more than one round. They might create one crater, but at least in the graphical representation multiple projectiles can be seen flying. I'm not sure though how the shots are actually modelled. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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