Ravinhood Posted March 2, 2003 Share Posted March 2, 2003 While I find the graphic candy of course an improvement over the origional game, and the new advance to contact feature beneficial for the computer AI, once again I see the same AI basically as the origional. I tested the CMBB AI in the demo version Yelnia Stare, I took the Germans and did what always seemed to rip apart any AI in the origional version by stacking up all my troups in one area, the middle objective flag, with a handful of men to my left perhaps a company and one AT gun. I left the right objective flag completely open and then proceeded with the scenario. Well just as they did in the origional game, so they did in this new game as well, they marched troup after troup up the middle with tank support in the rear, charging over open ground trying to take the middle objective, time after time of course with the tactical placement of my men and coming out of hiding at the correct moment, of course they were massacred. About minute 17 or 18 they finally broke my left, which was merely a holding point until their middle assault could be weakened, then I just moved three fresh squads over to the left side of the middle objective and picked off every squad they sent to the left one by one as I had in the middle previously. I even saved my offboard artillery fire for the last few turns of the game, lol, that was of course the straw that broke the camels back and the majority of russians proceeded to run for the border as one might say. Taco anyone? The AI never made any attempt to take the right objective flag with even one man. It appears the AI centers it's forces to the objective flags that are held and don't even consider the unheld ones, at least in this scenario. At turn 27 the game ended and I won a German Tactical victory with 64% vs 36% to the Russians. I had eliminated over 700 of their troups while they had only eliminated a mere handful of my own and my three guns. While I still enjoy the origional version of this game, I really see no reason to buy this version of the game, since I never was interested in the German/Russo campaign anyways. But, had the AI shown better improvmement over the origional I would have gladly considered another purchase. It's really sad that the AI in this game and most other games as well, saving Sid Miers Gettysburg series do not even attempt any flanking or feint maneuvers, just straight up the middle with everything they have and if one "handicaps" them with enough troups they are able to overcome the human opponent. Of course anyone knows that has played this scenario that the Germans are greatly outnumbered and the German supply and ammo are at a minimum, no tank support whatsoever and most companies low on men as well. All in all it's a pretty game, the swaying trees, the improved graphics, very pretty. But, as I've said many times before, games need better AI instead of improved graphics, not everyone plays multiplayer or has time for it and thus the single player version and a strong AI make more of a difference than eye candy does. Remember more is not always better, less can be better if it's Parkay. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Priest Posted March 2, 2003 Share Posted March 2, 2003 All things considered the AI in the game is great especially once you consider the the TAC AI is also to some extent controlling your forces also. It is a known fact that in the current CM engine the AI does not attack well. How about you taking the Russians in that one? Also most everyone who tires of the AI plays multiplayer. I have not played the AI since about the 1st month I owned CMBO and I was a pre-order. You can look at it two ways, you can comment on things that are already known (and the improvements in CMBB go much further than eye candy, have you seen the MG suppression, or how about tank CnC, some nifty new commands, etc) and lose out on a stupendous game (have seen the awards and scores?). I mean if you are going to play a WWII tactical game what is out that is better, surely not GI COMBAT or Sudden Strike, those games from a realism standpoint are jokes. Or you can say, damn nice game, not sure if I am happy just playing the AI, but with PBEM and TCP options and no lack of good opponents I will finally get a good return for my money. Your choice. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nevermind Posted March 2, 2003 Share Posted March 2, 2003 Originally posted by Priest: Or you can say, damn nice game, not sure if I am happy just playing the AI, but with PBEM and TCP options and no lack of good opponents I will finally get a good return for my money. Your choice. I second that.If you have time to play at all,then you have time to PBEM.IMHO,PBEM has more strategy,it gives you more time to think it all thru,plus you can find someone willing to do 1 turn,or even less,a day.I thought the AI was getting old as well,in most cases i would get a surrender with 5-10 turns to go(depending on scenario),now i seem to lose more than win in multiplay.I'm willing to bet that it would be the same for you,since all you have played is the AI.CMBB's new features makes multiplay so much better than CMBO,again IMHO.My 2 cents. [ March 02, 2003, 05:14 AM: Message edited by: nevermind ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lou2000 Posted March 2, 2003 Share Posted March 2, 2003 Originally posted by Ravinhood: ............................ While I still enjoy the origional version of this game, I really see no reason to buy this version of the game, since I never was interested in the German/Russo campaign anyways. But, had the AI shown better improvmement over the origional I would have gladly considered another purchase. .....................Quite few people have noted that the AI seems to play much better after the full game was patched (1.01) and most players agree that the scenarios offered in the demo were not the best ones to show off the updated game engine (note 'updated' not 'new'). It may be that CMBB isnt the game for you due to the fact that you dont really have much interest in the Eastern Front .... and especially as you only managed a 'Tactical Victory' against such a poor AI. The full version AI would probably cream you ... as would most human opponents But joking aside ... if you enjoyed CMBO then I think it's safe to say you'd enjoy the full version on CMBB As for not having enough time to play multiplayer ... a PBEM takes no longer to setup than a single player game ... and each email turn after that only takes a few minutes to play and playing a human is MUCH better than the AI .... You'll get all the dirty tricks you could ever want ..... and also an opponent who can taunt and ridicule every stupid mistake you make ..... ( I get lots of those ) Lou2000 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted March 2, 2003 Share Posted March 2, 2003 Ravinhood, I think you would be surprised what a good scenario designer can achieve. Using some clever map design, you can get the AI to flank you good, in fact What most people don't realize that the AI in CM is fully dynamic. It is not scripted, and will put up a good fight on any map, against any opponent. It will be better on some maps, and it will be worse on others. It is, after all, not another human. Can it be improved? Without a doubt. Even beyond the standard it has been improved to in CMBB vs. CMBO. In my opinion, you cannot judge the AI from playing one or two scenarios, not with a game which gives you thousands of random or user made scenarios. Martin 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanaka Posted March 2, 2003 Share Posted March 2, 2003 Originally posted by Ravinhood: While I find the graphic candy of course an improvement over the origional game, and the new advance to contact feature beneficial for the computer AI, once again I see the same AI basically as the origional... Better AI... hmmm, but I don't use it First let me clear that I only play with human opponents, for me CM should be "all" "TacAI and a good game engine". Because of this, I see time invested in "improving" AI as completely useless. CM series are by far the best games I had/have, principally if we go by the $/use ratio, 50$ every 2 or 3 years, not much "entertainment" come cheaper then that AI I'm sorry to inform you that in our game universe, all AIs are "dumb", also remember that normally for any AI to be "challenging", it has to "cheat". (CM AI doesn’t) On all current best selling strategic games out there, AIs "work", is based in "cheating", "scripting" and plain old "dual logic". You typed about SM Gettysburg AI; don't compare it with CM AI, they just aren't comparable, it’s like apples and oranges, they are both fruits, but… The problems/options CM AI has to deal with in its 3d environment are for sure different and more complex. Is it fair I go and compare any Panther AA AI with a BTS CM AI. ? No… EU AI and CM AI? No... I must say there was at least one "grand public" game I remember that used the highest form (in my view) of AI, the "learning" AI… This tactical combat game, developed it self in a small confined 2D environment (to be more precise in a "fake" 3d environment and I’m not talking about the CC games), it collected statistical data to produce “optional matrices” in order to learn how to “defeat” the human player. On this 2d game, these matrices were already very big and the end result, although more challenging was many times “unreal” and “gamey”. So, to do something similar for CM, might prove insanely time consuming/hard and the results would most likely be unsatisfactory. Where my vote goes… :cool: In the age of the global network, I personally think, “solo” players and AI are a thing of the past… So, I would say, invest a big “chunk” of the new game engine development in “borg spotting” and “Infantry fight model” and as for the “solo play”… It must be there, as it has been shown that exclusively “on-line” games can have an hard time to get them going, but from there to invest greatly in it, goes a big difference. Just to finish this already long post, I want to ask you a favor… If by any chance you are better informed then me, and know about the existence of any tactical game with a challenging & “non cheating” AI, please do tell me, I might consider in some occasions, changing my pbem mates by it 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stacheldraht Posted March 2, 2003 Share Posted March 2, 2003 CMBB is a superb game, no question about it. Its list of strengths is lengthy and impressive. That said, the strategic/operational AI (as opposed to the TacAI, which is a different issue) leaves a whole to be desired, especially on the attack. While it's true that well-designed scenarios can help make up for the AI's inherent weaknesses, try playing the AI on a random QB map, particularly in an ME or with the AI attacking. As the first poster noted, it still tends to just lump all its units together and casually march them towards the biggest/closest flag. It's a little better at defending since there it's mainly just a question of initial unit placement, considering the AI does little if anything with mobile reserves, counterattacks, outflanking, etc. It also tends to be too predictable on the defense, almost always placing AT guns along the back edge of the map in any available clumps of trees. Those can indeed be good positions, but when they become predictable, they're not so good anymore I really hope the AI will be a major focus of improvement in BTS' next game because, as noted above, not everyone likes or has the time for PBEM's or TCP/IP games. Those can be great fun, but they can turn into big hassles too, unless you find really good, honest, and conscientious opponents, which can be easier said than done. Plus, why include AI games if they're not meant to taken as seriously as multiplayer games? They shouldn't just be a teaching tool for newbies, but should be a fun challenge for all players. And that's not to say they're not fun, just that they could definitely stand improvement. (Btw, I've played hundreds of AI games in CMBO/BB, so I'm not just spouting!) [ March 02, 2003, 09:53 AM: Message edited by: Stacheldraht ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blow2 Posted March 2, 2003 Share Posted March 2, 2003 The AI isn't as dumb as , it appears, the player whp tested it. This is, in fact, the smartest combat AI I have come across, but it is a scripted computer code, so it has foibles - it will sometimes tend to leave perfectly good defensive positions and attack, or, as he has discovered, ignore one objective for another, more difficult to achieve one. The answer is simple - adjust the scenario. In this case, make each flag live (stick a single spare Btn CO at each one and create them from the Units). In my case, I found the AI had a tendency to place its armour in the same spot every time regardles of weather, units or whatever. In the end, I smacked a pine forest down and forced it to change. The result was that armour popped up in a place I hadn't reckoned on and gave me a tough time. There are always ways to adjust a scenario - you just have to a) care. think. Bolo 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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