Biltong's Campaign Rules

[Seahawk-vfa201]

88mm

I agree with most you say: it would be a great program.

I'll expand on your other questions later: running to a meeting now.

[88mm]

Originally posted by Seahawk-vfa201:

so actualy it should be: Prisoners taken ?

One major disadvantage about the sheets; you have to record it all yourself (with pen & paper). wish there was a way to extract the results/units info out of the saved game data. A nice program

[ May 12, 2003, 01:31 PM: Message edited by: 88mm ]

[Seahawk-vfa201]

Originally posted by 88mm:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Seahawk-vfa201:

so actualy it should be: Prisoners taken ?

</font>

Nope, actually prisoners taken are the one which go on the enemy sheet. You see, when YOU capture enemy then it is Prisoners taken

The correct expressions would be "Prisoners lost to enemy"

One major disadvantage about the sheets; you have to record it all yourself (with pen & paper). wish there was a way to extract the results/units info out of the saved game data. A nice program

IF there was a way it could then be inputed automatically into BiltAid.

[ May 12, 2003, 04:46 PM: Message edited by: Seahawk-vfa201 ]

[88mm]

that's why it is confusing. While the game not mention prisoner lost, BCR does. WHY? Wasn't it easier to follow to keep it "prisoner taken", and then cross-link the results (under de code).

so when there's a They/our sheet. You fill it in under "our" which afcource have no effect on the left sheet-result, but effects the right column (they). The end-result is the same, but it's easier to follow then asking the opposite which is provided by the game-results. Also, it's obvious when you have a 10 men squad, and say that 8 men alived, 2 must be gone right?

i mean, these sheets are a nightmare for a beginner. I still don't know what to do with my survided tank-crew. Or the immobile tank for that metter. So many rulez, sub-rules to the rules and sub-sub-rules(notes) to the sub-rules of the rules. Can you follow what i am saying :eek:

another example, the guide says you can upgrade your core-units. When ? with what money you are allowed? Then it says in the same breath better not to do so, since it can spoil the balance. Why say you can then in the first place, Forbid it , simple. Or add a time-table, or allow only upgrade in the same series PzIIc > PZIIF and PZIIIG > PzIIIH ..

Then the roll-the dice stuff, when it's above 10 you have a 10 right. Now look at the arty-table, when it's a 10 AND within a time-frame/weather whatever you should go to 9. Very difficult to follow... Maybe i am doing something wrong, but the way i see it there's a 1 out of 10 chance that you can buy planes. Even less, considering the sub-rules....

don't get me wrong, i love difficult games. But only when the structure is logical and make sence. And that's exactly what i miss. One thing that makes logic; follow the structure of the game....

Why start with the Allies-table (setup) while the game starts (we read from left to right, so left=first) with the Axis. Making rules is one, implementing them in a logic and easy to follow manner is a another struggle.

[Seahawk-vfa201]

Originally posted by 88mm:

that's why it is confusing. While the game not mention prisoner lost, BCR does. WHY? Wasn't it easier to follow to keep it "prisoner taken", and then cross-link the results (under de code).

so when there's a They/our sheet. You fill it in under "our" which afcource have no effect on the left sheet-result, but effects the right column (they). The end-result is the same, but it's easier to follow then asking the opposite which is provided by the game-results. Also, it's obvious when you have a 10 men squad, and say that 8 men alived, 2 must be gone right?

Nope, those are truly prisoners lost and taken. BCR computes different points for whether you capture enemy troop and/or the enemy captures your unit.

On the Main AAR of CMBB the game mentions whether you have lost units because the enemy captured them rather then killed/disabled them.

i mean, these sheets are a nightmare for a beginner. I still don't know what to do with my survided tank-crew. Or the immobile tank for that metter. So many rulez, sub-rules to the rules and sub-sub-rules(notes) to the sub-rules of the rules. Can you follow what i am saying :eek:

I know, there is a high threshold before getting into comfortable zone. Anyway, if there is no immediate battle following the one just fought then your KampfGruppe by default receives replacement and spare parts.

another example, the guide says you can upgrade your core-units. When ? with what money you are allowed? Then it says in the same breath better not to do so, since it can spoil the balance. Why say you can then in the first place, Forbid it , simple. Or add a time-table, or allow only upgrade in the same series PzIIc > PZIIF and PZIIIG > PzIIIH

That is left to players taste. Attached units (once you get 5) can be upgraded with remaining attached points. Regular units (KampfGruppe) as well but it is left to common sense: say you have fought few months battles and your favor is high. BCR leaves you the freedom to upgrade: say you get the PZII upgraded to a second PZIII. The warning in BCR is not to upgrade to all King Tigers

..

Then the roll-the dice stuff, when it's above 10 you have a 10 right. Now look at the arty-table, when it's a 10 AND within a time-frame/weather whatever you should go to 9. Very difficult to follow... Maybe i am doing something wrong, but the way i see it there's a 1 out of 10 chance that you can buy planes. Even less, considering the sub-rules....

don't get me wrong, i love difficult games. But only when the structure is logical and make sence. And that's exactly what i miss. One thing that makes logic; follow the structure of the game....

88mm, the rules have been updated and modified constantly for a long time in order to achieve (via die-rolls) as results what happened duting the actual war in the 40s. If you note there are lots of modifiers according to the date of the year. Of course, the die-roll is used so that the results for a battle set-up are not *that* predictable, but still provides for some *unlucky* event to happen.

To tell you the truth: trying to understand at first read why certain rules are the way they are is a daunting task: they got modified along a long period of time in order to provide most of the time results in line with the historical events. Don't ask me though: I was not there during this process of fine-tuning.

BiltAid is there to avoid as much as possible the *understandable* frustration of dealing with all the rules, especially at the beginning. BUT, there are some players who will never renounce to their pencils

Why start with the Allies-table (setup) while the game starts (we read from left to right, so left=first) with the Axis. Making rules is one, implementing them in a logic and easy to follow manner is a another struggle.

You mean in the rules sheet? Good point. I guess the answer in buried in the mist of time

PS

I personally use BiltAid: It allows me to fight the next battle in ~5 minutes

[Seahawk-vfa201]

Originally posted by 88mm:

[...] the guide says you can upgrade your core-units. When ? with what money you are allowed? Then it says in the same breath better not to do so, since it can spoil the balance. Why say you can then in the first place, Forbid it , simple. Or add a time-table, or allow only upgrade in the same series PzIIc > PZIIF and PZIIIG > PzIIIH ..

Indeed this is the case. Fact is BCR went under so many questions/answers that it needs maybe a FAQ.

Your questions and others arised so many times one cannot count them anymore. If all the necessary explanation were to be put *literally* in BCR the rules would be a book 100 pages long.

For beginners it is TOUGH though: there are explanations which are available in the threads archives such as the tank upgrade above which are not written (now?!) in the rules.

Rules are the result of hundreds of contributions like yours. The BCR community should have a secretary to build up a FAQ !

[ May 13, 2003, 02:33 AM: Message edited by: Seahawk-vfa201 ]

[willmontgomery]

Originally posted by 88mm:

The thing i missed was control of research and development, production and control over the whole battlefront. Would love to decide where and when to deploy this division or start a advance. where you should respond on the enemie where he was trying to make a break against you

Sounds like Hearts of Iron _might_ be for you. Combat is fairly abstract, and the AI isn't too bright, but you get a _lot_ of control over the grand strategic stuff (including technological development, production, and where to strike next).

[willmontgomery]

Originally posted by Seahawk-vfa201:

IF I had the time to do that I would have to charge BCR community my $/hr rate which exceeds $80.

You must be a "consultant", i.e. you must have to pay for "overhead" things like self-employment taxes and full medical insurance premiums out of that hourly rate (so it's not all salary). 'Cause if it's all salary, then shouldn't you be working only half-time or else retiring early, so you should have plenty of time to write custom software for people you'll probably never meet except on this forum.

[Seahawk-vfa201]

Originally posted by willmontgomery:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Seahawk-vfa201:

IF I had the time to do that I would have to charge BCR community my $/hr rate which exceeds $80.

You must be a "consultant", i.e. you must have to pay for "overhead" things like self-employment taxes and full medical insurance premiums out of that hourly rate (so it's not all salary). 'Cause if it's all salary, then shouldn't you be working only half-time or else retiring early, so you should have plenty of time to write custom software for people you'll probably never meet except on this forum. </font>

[Lou2000]

Totally agree with the need for a FAQ.

However despite Biltongs misquote on my earlier posting I wont be doint it

[Greebo]

Seahawk,

Forgive me I'm a little slow on the uptake, so slow I typed this all last night and seeing as it isn't here, I guess I forgot to click Add Reply

I want to know what goes where in the Prisoners Lost section of BiltAid

I'll offer up an example:

2 German Squads are captured by the Russians a total of 7 men (3 from SqdA and 4 from SqdB)

3 Russian Squad is captured by the Germans, 15 men (7,5,3), and 1 HQ unit (2 men).

So what goes into BiltAid?

a) German Prisoners Lost Sqds:2 HQ:0

Russian Prisoners Lost Sqds:3 HQ:1

German Prisoners Lost Sqds:7 HQ:0

Russian Prisoners Lost Sqds:15 HQ:2

c) German Prisoners Lost Sqds:3 HQ:1

Russian Prisoners Lost Sqds:2 HQ:0

d) German Prisoners Lost Sqds:15 HQ:2

Russian Prisoners Lost Sqds:7 HQ:0

I've been multi-guessing (a), but after all the talk I'm not so sure any more.

Thanks

It is also good to hear that BCR is difficult for everyone else, I fair OK on defence or MEs but I have a huge problem with Attacking. I always end up either chasing the clock attempting to win the battle or worse pushing forward too carelessly and taking heavy losses.

My current battle #9 as an example, is a night time, rain assault. Visability about 60m in the open, my 50mm Mortars are next to useless, because they can't see far beyond their min range. My AFVs have only a single gap to pass a solid line of pines, scattered, and woods across the middle of the board. Suprise suprise the AI has droped Roadblocks in the gap, making it even smaller and mined what was left. I have 10% casualties from the start which stole my PzIIIG. My Pz IVE got bogged in the back field then immobilised.

On the good news side, I have reached the Russian skirmish lines, and overrun them. And they only have 10% ammo. But now I face 100-200m of open ground before hitting a large clump of trees with 4 VFs.

[88mm]

That is left to players taste. Attached units (once you get 5) can be upgraded with remaining attached points. Regular units (KampfGruppe) as well but it is left to common sense: say you have fought few months battles and your favor is high. BCR leaves you the freedom to upgrade: say you get the PZII upgraded to a second PZIII. The warning in BCR is not to upgrade to all King Tigers

You need high favor to upgrade ? And i use bilt-aid too, most times i have more cash left then i spend on my core/taskforce. Can i use the remaining cash to buy stuff to my likin?

Can i use the cash to upgrade?

ps; just started a new campaing (ps=regular). Managed to make a tactical victory at night against a +25% ally. My core tanks survived, losses were 30 cas and 8 kia. Are these acceptable ? (aldo 4 units are green and 1 conscript)

[Seahawk-vfa201]

Originally posted by Greebo:

Seahawk,

[...]

Prisoners Lost section of BiltAid

example:

2 German Squads are captured by the Russians a total of 7 men (3 from SqdA and 4 from SqdB)

3 Russian Squad is captured by the Germans, 15 men (7,5,3), and 1 HQ unit (2 men).

What goes into BiltAid?

German Prisoners Lost Sqds:7 HQ:0

Russian Prisoners Lost Sqds:15 HQ:2

BiltAid now is rules v2.2 so the answer is B. Point are counted per # of soldiers (either squad or officer)

German Prisoner lost go in the friendly (Axis) Prisoner lost

Russian Prisoners lost into the enemy (Allied) Prisoner lost

To clarify: consider Prisoners as Damage inflicted.

When you destroy Russian tanks where do you input that value?! On the Enemy list of damages or on the Axis list of damages?

If you capture 30 Ruskies that is equivalent to a damage inflicted to enemy forces. To re-answer the question: "Why not prisoner taken instead of prisoners lost? Because that would have created an exception: when you destroy tanks, guns, bunkers, pillnbox you would easily input those numbers of the Russian panel but when you capture soldiers your would instead input that value on teh Axis side? Hence Prisoners Lost and not Taken

This way all final results stick together on the same panel. As I said: consider Prisoners as damage: all damage for one side goes together in the same panel.

[ May 13, 2003, 01:26 PM: Message edited by: Seahawk-vfa201 ]

[Seahawk-vfa201]

Originally posted by 88mm:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> That is left to players taste. Attached units (once you get 5) can be upgraded with remaining attached points. Regular units (KampfGruppe) as well but it is left to common sense: say you have fought few months battles and your favor is high. BCR leaves you the freedom to upgrade: say you get the PZII upgraded to a second PZIII. The warning in BCR is not to upgrade to all King Tigers

You need high favor to upgrade ? And i use bilt-aid too, most times i have more cash left then i spend on my core/taskforce. Can i use the remaining cash to buy stuff to my likin?

Can i use the cash to upgrade?

ps; just started a new campaing (ps=regular). Managed to make a tactical victory at night against a +25% ally. My core tanks survived, losses were 30 cas and 8 kia. Are these acceptable ? (aldo 4 units are green and 1 conscript) </font>

[Seahawk-vfa201]

Originally posted by 88mm:

just started a new campaing (ps=regular). Managed to make a tactical victory at night against a +25% ally. My core tanks survived, losses were 30 cas and 8 kia. Are these acceptable ? (aldo 4 units are green and 1 conscript)

Those casualties are respectable. Only try not to have all in one squad

With time (killing) those numbers won't degrade a squad anymore (it will be high in the scale for a same exp level.

Sometimes I had relatively few losses for a squad (say 2) but no score from killing. Rules reflect that as a if the squad did not engage much in the battlefield its experience is affected. If it had instead - say - some 20 casualties inflicted its experience would have increased even with the loss of 2 men.

All is relative.

There is a general feeling that indeed infantry unit experience raises too slow. I have 3 Veterans now and I am only fighting battle #17. I also have a couple of greens, the rest is regular. To me this is rather acceptable if I see it in the time span those 17 battles happened (I am in Kiev, Spetember). After all my men are fighting since a couple of months only. Some squad have been unlucky, suffering casualties after casualties , some quite good at killing (lucky battles), some very lucky (few casualties AND lots of killing. So far I am pleased.

[Seahawk-vfa201]

Unit Upgrades

I have yet to upgrade although my player experience have been raised (promotion) 3 times. I have high favor. Not lost a single battle. of 16 battles (fighting #17) I have 2 marginal Victories, 2 Major and 12 Total.

I would have had enough meat on the grill to upgrade.

Why I did not? Because I deemed that so early in the war it would have been unrealistic. Germany is pushing hard, war effort is high, no time to please a little KampfGruppe Commander by sending him a new PzIII to replace its PzII.

I am happy they keep with sending the spare parts in time

But that is me :cool: , another might have decided differently :eek:

[Seahawk-vfa201]

Originally posted by Lou2000:

Totally agree with the need for a FAQ.

However despite Biltongs misquote on my earlier posting I wont be doint it

those are bad news Lou

[88mm]

Thks seahawk, you cleared some questions for me.

Never knew you Player Skill can be upgraded by the rules

So suppose i can buy 200 inf and 200 armor;

when i've done that and still have 300 poit left, i can buy whatever i like from those 2 categories....

Ow, i was lucky with the dice, i can buy "rare" stuff. Is that just one unit or may i buy more 'rare" stuff ?

And yes, i still gonna make a campaign. Aldo i am too lazy to micro-manage all footstuff units.

the fist meters are fine (groups selct) but when the fights start, you have to check every single unit and/or give orders....

gues i need more patience

Battle 2; medium/assault/ with 1800! p Artillery lol

[Greebo]

example:

2 German Squads are captured by the Russians a total of 7 men (3 from SqdA and 4 from SqdB)

3 Russian Squad is captured by the Germans, 15 men (7,5,3), and 1 HQ unit (2 men).

What goes into BiltAid?

German Prisoners Lost Sqds:7 HQ:0

Russian Prisoners Lost Sqds:15 HQ:2

Oh Bugger! I've been using A

At least I know the correct option now, thanks SeaHawk.

Guess I'm back to plodding forward into the dark rain tonight.

BTW: The campaign has got me into playing CMBB more, I hope it helps improve my game (shouldn't be too difficult)

And thanks for the continued support of BiltAid, I tried the paper route, and it was too damn difficult for me (or am I lazy).

[Lou2000]

Originally posted by Seahawk-vfa201:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Lou2000:

Totally agree with the need for a FAQ.

However despite Biltongs misquote on my earlier posting I wont be doint it

those are bad news Lou </font>

[Seahawk-vfa201]

Originally posted by 88mm:

Thks seahawk, you cleared some questions for me.

Never knew you Player Skill can be upgraded by the rules

So suppose i can buy 200 inf and 200 armor;

when i've done that and still have 300 poit left, i can buy whatever i like from those 2 categories....

Ow, i was lucky with the dice, i can buy "rare" stuff. Is that just one unit or may i buy more 'rare" stuff ?

And yes, i still gonna make a campaign. Aldo i am too lazy to micro-manage all footstuff units.

the fist meters are fine (groups selct) but when the fights start, you have to check every single unit and/or give orders....

gues i need more patience

Battle 2; medium/assault/ with 1800! p Artillery lol

Player skill: win 6 battles in a row and you get *promoted*, ie things get more difficult as it affects the die-rolls.

200 points Inf, 200 points armor: how could you have 300 points left? It is NOT the total left.

It is per category. So you spent - say - 160 pts on Inf and 180 on Armor (to but what the temp generated QB has provided as units to buy). You have 40 points left on Inf and 20 points left on Armor. Those are the points you can spend freely although most of the time those points are not enough to buy anything in those categories. So it happens frequently they are lost.

Rare stuff: I believe it is for the battle. Let's say it is Berlin that has decided the next battle is crucial so you get better support (or priority): "Send that new tank there NOW!"

Micro-management: refrain to impose specific target. Let the unit do that. Same for tanks.You won't regret it. Use smoke to cover advance, use suppression fire. Play more realistically and you will achieve better results. Patience? yes

1800 Artillery: CRUSH them ALL!

[ May 13, 2003, 05:20 PM: Message edited by: Seahawk-vfa201 ]

[Biltong]

Originally posted by Lou2000:

......

Now those nice guys who were involved in fine tuning these rules are the ones who should have all the answers ......

Ahhh - The incomprehensible rules

A bit of history. The 1st set of rules spanned only 10 or so pages. Once the guys started playing the holes appeared. As we/I expanded the rules to cater for historical accuracy and most of the important permutations made possible by the parameters it turned into a 'book'.

About 5? months ago we started to get an influx of new players and it became clear that we needed a 1st battle newbie handbook - hence the Players Guide.

A fanatical guy with extensive experience in manuals, called (fittingly), The Scalpel took the rules in hand and helped to create the Player Guide. He polished the rules, sentence by sentence, clearing up language, logic and potential misunderstandings.

For instance: It would seem dumb to have two sets of rules: BCR & a Players Guide, but there's logic behind this. The idea is for a new player to use the Player Guide in conjunction with the rules to hold his hand, so to speak, through the 1st couple of battles only. Thereafter he can discard the Player Guide and only use the more compact Rules.

Combining the two into one would make a bulky and very difficult document to use when rolling up battles. The rules are a summary of the bare essentials needed to roll up battles. If something isn't clear, go back to the player guide and check if it isn't explained in greater detail there.

As for FAQ's - We had a volunteer some months ago, but we decided against it, for the same reason. There are such a wide variety of questions, that to list all of these and their answers would create another volume of pages that will just confuse newbies even more. Now they will sit with 3 books!!

After about 6 months of adjusting BCR, I called a halt, to give the auto guys some time to finalise their programs. At that stage it also became clear that 90% of the questions that were still coming in, were because the player did not read that section of the rules properly.

Certainly there will always be room for improvement... When I see 2 or more people misunderstanding a rule, then I clear it up. Hence the 10 or more updates However, I did make a conscious descision not to cater for all eventualities - esp where the player's should be able to use common sense. To cater for every permutation would turn the rules into a monster that will scare away every new player. I cater for the average CMBB player. assuming a fair knowledge of CMBB and some experience in wargames and some knowledge of the EF theatre. To cater for total newbies, explaining how CMBB works, what happened on the EF, etc. is outside the scope of BCR.

Generally I find that once players have played a couple of battles, the logic falls into place and soon therafter he stops reading large parts of the rules, because it becomes automatic.

Actual mistakes in the rules have virtually disappeared. The last one was found 2? months ago.

Newbies normally have some questions, since the rules are a lot to absorb in one sitting, but this is where this thread comes in. It is very seldom that a newbie asks a question and it does not get answered by one of the guys within 2 days. I, myself check in nearly every day to make sure that questions have been answered. This also has the added benefit of keeping the thread alive and introducing more players to BCR and providing a ready forum for discussion. I know there are a lot of BCR lurkers who read this thread on a regular basis

Biltong

[Biltong]

Originally posted by Seahawk-vfa201:

..

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />

Why start with the Allies-table (setup) while the game starts (we read from left to right, so left=first) with the Axis. Making rules is one, implementing them in a logic and easy to follow manner is a another struggle.

You mean in the rules sheet? Good point. I guess the answer in buried in the mist of time

...</font>

[88mm]

Hence: Allies need to be roled up 1st. Logical after all

No, i don't understand. Every roll of the dice is a action on itself, why should it be different when you start rolling the Axis Parameters :confused:

Ow, i use Biltaid lately. The Excelsheets are hopeless, more so when you don't own a printer.

But in the excel-sheets i see favor-points for KO/Aban. Mortars. In Biltaid i find nothing of it (mortars).

another thing:

Can't you change the player experience with biltaid ? It just starts with regular....

Also i am puzzling why there is such a difficult calculation made for favor. Is it realy a must? Can't there be a more simplified manner to get more or less the same results. Dunno, but i have the feeling that things are overdone. Some people may find it amusing to jump from unit to unit after the battle, writing down the status, kills etc.etc.

what's the differnce between a burned, Knocked out or abanded vehicle anyway. they are out of order, not? There's just too much nitpicking. Seriously, someone should re-examine all this stuff and ask himself; is this really nessacairy :confused:

Seahawk

Well, my 1800 art. didn't helped me much. guess i made some serious mistake.

My forces were setup for a left-flank manouvre, covered by smoke from 2 105mm art. the first action went well, knocked out one mg bunker which was placed on the utmost left-side of me.

My Spw's,Tanks and troops rushed to the smokecreen. Unfortunatle i lost 1 Pz 35t underway , a small hole in the screen gave a At-gun the chance to knock it down. turn 4 i passed the smoke, and here i ran into trouble immedietly. turn 4/5 the HE barrage started too, with 2x150mm Art en 2 x105mm art. But my pz. core ran into a screen of AT-guns and MG-bunkers+At-pillbox. Lost all Pz 35t after a fierce shoot-out, 1 PzIIIh and some SPW's.

After a quick re assembling of the remainder task-force i could push toward to main-flag and fighted for a disappointing draw...

My infantry were never in a very good position, total overal kill's for my squads/mg's; 50 inf...

Think i am gonna play battle 2 over....

[atiff]

Originally posted by 88mm:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Hence: Allies need to be roled up 1st. Logical after all

No, i don't understand. Every roll of the dice is a action on itself, why should it be different when you start rolling the Axis Parameters :confused:

</font>