Biltong's Campaign Rules

[Biltong]

Originally posted by 88mm:

...

However; despite my superior forces and 4 total victories my troops are not getting significantly better, ...WTF. is wrong. Am i that bad ? Are the rules too tight ? This isn't fun at all. After a week fierce fighting you should expect to see the first veteran's on the battlefield.

...

The East Front is a tough school my friend

You must try and reduce your casualties to a realistic level: 1 or 2 max per squad and a lot less on avarage or you'll be losing experience. Rather retreat and lose favor!

Have a look at these areas:

Advance:

Careful scouting with a split squad before advancing with the rest.

Overwatch at all times!!

Supression fire on likely defensive positions.

Try and flank the enemy. Don't go for the largest flag 1st.

Defense

Don't stand and fight toe to toe with an enemy that has superior numbers: Fire and Manoeuvre!!

The AI is slow - use this to your advantage!

Create multiple layers of defensive positions using split squads to make multiple foxholes (+ fall back foxholes). Don't place men in buildings - 1st split them and make foxholes in the right places (reverse slopes etc) and then run them up to the buildings where you wanted them in the 1st place.

Remember to set arcs for +- 50m - don't fire until you can see the white's of their eyes

Don't waste arty by firing too fast - wait until you have a definitive concentration of enemy.

DO study tactics posted on the various sites and threads.

Don't give up too easily - you'll find that you will become a vastly different caliber of player once you've played BCR for a couple of months. I had to drop a couple of my old PBEM mates after a while - Our games were becoming very one-sided

If you upgrade your armor be aware that BCR will upgrade your armor as time goes on. Be carefull not to upgrade too fast or it will throw the ballance out. In Jan 42 you get the following:

1 Platoon of 3 x Sturmgeschutz IIIB

1 Platoon of 4 x Panzer IIIJ

[ May 10, 2003, 01:33 PM: Message edited by: Biltong ]

[88mm]

Lose Favor? Retreat ?

this you call realistic ????

Hitler would have let me shot, within a week !

Let me see, last battle i took 415 prisoners, killed 133 enemies and lost 13 myself. Yet i loose experience :mad:

no my friend, the difficulty is too high. You can't expect 5 battles with near to none losses on your side....atleast not if you want those objectives, and the Fuhrer demands nothing less... :eek:

Besides, i am playing at "regular", for crying out loud. Don't even wanna think how things are with "expert" settings :cool:

fire and manoevre ???

with what? The infantry, aldo fit gets tired after 100 metres already, totaly fatigued after 200. How to manoevre unseen in a open, no forest roral map ????

Besises that, 1 or two men replacements should not have a great effect on a squad. There's enough experience around those one or two to learn quick....

Keep in mind that exactly the best divisions Germany were the ones who engaded in the toughest battles (ss-div. mostly). Surely they recieved their end of the losses, and yet they still were lean mean fighting machines.

1) They were best equiped

2) They were extremely good re-inforced and re-suppied.

3) The men serving the SS were hand-picked....

anyway, if the only way to succeed is to not succeed and play hide and seek my interest in this campaing-type looses it attraction rappidly....

and then this: When you want to "blitz" there isn't much time to sneak you're way to the enemy. Also you cannot afford to not take that objective when you're in the middle of a stragetic campaign to encircle large groups of russians (div/army) like we have seen in WWII.

Not to take that flag would be the same as a total failure to encircle and trap those forces.

ps: foxholes? What are you babling about? I fought 3 Assualts, 1 immediatly and one meeting sofar. Foxholes are useless when you're advancing, isn't it ? (you can take over one from the enemy do ). I am on my way to Moskou, not sitting on my butt :cool:

Besides; where are my Stuka's? At this stage of the war you should get them almost for free, they were all over the battlefield. But no, no plane in the sky, oww well, yes there was. A russian :mad: one, taking out 5 SPw251/1 and one 20mmQuad with SPW-7 truck .... (battle 3)

Weird, must have been one of the last survivors of the german airfleet masaca they pounded on the russian airfleet in the first 2 days....

[ May 10, 2003, 03:08 PM: Message edited by: 88mm ]

[Biltong]

Originally posted by 88mm:

Lose Favor? Retreat ?

this you call realistic ????

Hitler would have let me shot, within a week !

Let me see, last battle i took 415 prisoners, killed 133 enemies and lost 13 myself. Yet i loose experience :mad:

no my friend, the difficulty is too high. You can't expect 5 battles with near to none losses on your side....atleast not if you want those objectives, and the Fuhrer demands nothing less... :eek:

Besides, i am playing at "regular", for crying out loud. Don't even wanna think how things are with "expert" settings :cool:

....

Come on 88 - you're playing a dumb computer f'g'sake!!

Some players here have started out as green/regular - fought right through - through the tough 41 winter - got upgraded to Crack along the way and now, in 42, most of their Battle Group is a mix of Vet and Crack.

I think you might have missed Note 8 - Player Experience

In determining a large part of your Task Force (29 to 33) and especially in Handicap (38) your Player Experience acts as a modifier.

Be very careful when giving yourself a rating. If you overestimate yourself you will have a very hard time!

CONSCRIPT - You have less than 6 months of war-gaming experience.

GREEN - You have played CMBO/CMBB for 2 years and have some other war-game experience as well.

REGULAR - I class myself in this category: 30 years war-gaming on and off with 5 years intensive war-gaming. CMBO/CMBB from the 1st CMBO demo 5+ PBEM's per night.

You cannot play BCR asif it's a QB or TCP/IP with flag rushes determining results. BCR is a campaign - the survival of your troops is paramount. Forget about Hitler shooting you Start treeting your troops as if they are your friends and comerades and you'll get it right.

[88mm]

Originally posted by Biltong:

REGULAR - I class myself in this category: 30 years war-gaming on and off with 5 years intensive war-gaming. CMBO/CMBB from the 1st CMBO demo 5+ PBEM's per night.

BCR is a campaign - the survival of your troops is paramount. Forget about Hitler shooting you Start treeting your troops as if they are your friends and comerades and you'll get it right.

See how silly you sound. 30 years of wargaming blabla.. and you still concider yourself "regular" ?

My god, who is gonna qualify for expert according to your standards ? :eek:

The survival is paramount ??? ghi, i thought winning the war is, and the sooner the better.

This is more a campaign of trenched warfare then the feared German Blitz. Anyway, knowing what i konw now, i see absolutely no challenge in this campaign anymore. A Supreme Commander knows when he have to make sacrefices and when not. Playing a no-loss allowed "campaign" or you're screwed is not my style.

sorry Biltong, i cannot understand the challenge and/or exiting in this. Ow well, maybe i am still too young (39)

About my lvl; As i said, i play it as "regular", tat would place me in your ballpark. Can't say i play 30+ years, only 15 or so. Panzer General series, Panzer Commander, Steel Panther series, CMBO/CMBB , Accros the Rhine, I'Panzer '44, Close Combat series(not my likin) and more...

Ow well, maybe i look too much as my favorite general; E. Rommel Push..push..push

[88mm]

You did not answered my other 2 question;

When i fill in the attached unit why isn't there a button for supporting weapons ? Why are there (despite the rules) 3 button's for tanks that you are not allowed to buy :confused:

You must try and reduce your casualties to a realistic level: 1 or 2 max per squad and a lot less on avarage or you'll be losing experience. Rather retreat and lose favor!

Realistic lvl ??? Compared to what, Second WW ? The germans lost around 1 milj. men in the first 2/3 months. That's 1 out of 3 men that were fighting on the front. There isn't a simple divider either, not every day was there fighting everywhere with every men availible. However, when there was a serious fight coming up, losses were expected and more common then not. Loosing 5 a 10% of your forces was not rare as this was a major push, not skirmishes. Another thing comes to mind, that is CMBO?BB doens't account wounded. Strange, since wounded men were much more common then killed. guess every men that is hit, dies the same minute. Afcource this isn't you to blame .

Another factor= the must for scores to gain experience. Looks to me a guy who allives 3 months of warfare is hardly to consider green anymore, aldo his killing wasn't superb. In this rule-set, this is just quite possible. Green over your ears, after seen numerous shells flying around, men dying around you, staring in the face of the enemy. ow well, it's still a game, right ? right.

[ May 10, 2003, 08:43 PM: Message edited by: 88mm ]

[Biltong]

Originally posted by 88mm:

... See how silly you sound..

I did not answer your 2 questions, because… well it was late at night and your language got me a bit riled up.

OK

foxholes? What are you babling about?..

Hmmm – 1st time I’ve received this type of language on this board. These remarks are unnecessary and counter-productive. I was trying to help you.

If you read my post you would have noticed that it was placed under the heading Defence.

Besides; where are my Stuka's?

If you check 32 Arty/Air you will notice two modifiers : June +2; July +1. 70% likelihood of getting air in June etc. Thereafter you will have 10% chance of getting air. Obviously this is very generous since it was unlikely that a single company would get air support so often.

You write quite a bit about the SS divisions… BCR represents an average unit…. Obviously not SS.

See how silly you sound. 30 years of wargaming blabla.. and you still concider yourself "regular" ?

Language?… The emphasis here is on “5 years intensive war-gaming. CMBO/CMBB”. I based my Player Exp on the rough formula Con 10% Green 20% Reg 50% Vet 18% Crack 2%.

Knowing the calibre of CMBO/BB players out there (at that time) I placed myself as Reg. Upper end of reg, maybe, but still not in the top 20%. This was based on extensive CMBO/BB PBEM’m over many years, where I had my arse kicked countless of times and also had the pleasure/pain to see real vets and even a crack or 2 in action. Since the huge influx of newbies I imagine I must have upgraded by now

When i fill in the attached unit why isn't there a button for supporting weapons ? Why are there (despite the rules) 3 button's for tanks that you are not allowed to buy...

I’m afraid I don’t know what you are talking about. I presume you are using Biltaid? I did not code Biltaid. All I can vouch for is BCR.

As for experience gain. This has been discussed extensively and adjusted over many months, with input from various sources including Grogs – and I mean real Grogs.

Short summary:

As you mention: The East Front was very expensive when it came to lives. So much so that there was a steady decline in the quality of troops, with some exceptions, through the years.

This is ‘ideal’ since it makes BCR more difficult as the campaign progress – an essential ingredient for any game.

If a green players’ troops can become Vet/Crack or Elite in no time, he and everybody else will have no motivation to progress through the 4+ years spanned by BCR. Boredom will set in soon after reaching the ‘peak’ and that will be the end of the campaign.

From your membership no. I presume you are new to CMBB. Even players with extensive experience in the other games you mention, quite often don’t have a clue re tactics, since they are not that crucial in the other games. CMBB and BCR, requires a good tactical knowledge. BCR’s un-stated aim is to make better players – more tactically aware.

Not all players have the time to spend on reading up on tactics – hence the Player Exp modifier. Players also have the option to modify the rules to suit themselves.

If a player don’t have the time or inclination to improve his tactical skills and have an ego problem with adjusting his player exp then BCR could well be an unpleasant experience.

[Seahawk-vfa201]

Originally posted by 88mm:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> You must try and reduce your casualties to a realistic level: 1 or 2 max per squad and a lot less on avarage or you'll be losing experience. Rather retreat and lose favor!

Realistic lvl ??? Compared to what, Second WW ? The germans lost around 1 milj. men in the first 2/3 months. That's 1 out of 3 men that were fighting on the front. There isn't a simple divider either, not every day was there fighting everywhere with every men availible. However, when there was a serious fight coming up, losses were expected and more common then not. Loosing 5 a 10% of your forces was not rare as this was a major push, not skirmishes. </font>

[88mm]

For my language; sorry. Don't mean to be rude or upset people. My English isn't the best, that's wy i have a hard time finding the right words and to explain myself.

As for my experience;

I do play CMBB/BO alot longer then my membership of this board. Where we have different thought about is nothing bad, but just a other view over a given subject. While others seem to enjoy to make a campaign of "survival", where no casualties are rewarded, despite the outcome. Where the experience of the battle-group conuts more then the outcome of a conflict. Fine. Not for me do. This is War, there are goals that have to be achieved. Not the survival of a few men. What's use is a crack formation when you're against the wall in berlin ?

Look at me, i fighted 4 years in the east, i am still alive, killed many foes and now i am back, with my last 3 bullets to defend the fatherland.

What i am trying to say is this; instead of making a campaign of survival and carefully look after your troops, where most battle aren't such a challenge at all, besides the effect of doing with it extreme caution and preserving your troops. You could however make the battles themselfes more challenging, with more reward for succes. But that's my opinion, everybody is free to have theirs.

Then you say; well if the experience-gain is to steep the interest of the players will go away..

later you say; over time the overal experience declined due to losses en shortages etc..

There's a conflict here.

The reason i don't find it attractive is simple, i know i can do it. With relative ease, with no exitement (boring battles). So i see no challenge in it. That's a pitty, it could have been so much more then a "paper and pencil"-race as "look at me; i have 4 cracks, 7 vets" type of game.

Get to that Hill, take it! Hold it till the last man ! If you succeed, you're awarded. If not, the campaign is in jepordy.

[Seahawk-vfa201]

BiltAid printing problem on OS X

I verified and there is a problem with USB printers. Have to try with printes accessed via CUPS and IP number.

The code that implements the printing feature is a proved one from Peterk. I'll try to see why it fails on OS X.

Some printing problems on OS X (manufacturers and or drivers) are solved by gimp-print (via Fink)

I am not advocating this as solution though as I did not try it but I'll try to look into it. (These last weeks real life is taking me away from CMBB: I am still in September 1941 fighting Kiev historical battle pack)

Concerning the BiltAid buttons for attached units. BiltAid is an evolving program which is supposed to - in the future - cover all options for all years.

Its limit is that it expects the user to know about BCR rules hence it is an aid not a substitute to knowing the rules.

On 41 you cannot get a tank as attached unit, on 45 it might well happen.

Reminder: BiltAid is not industrial-strenght robust: if you want to make it crash you will succeed. BiltAid happily accept garbage from user input and - as happily - will spit out garbage: there is no check on user input.

Finally, use BiltAid after you know about the rules: it is a tool that will do the calculations for you, look after die-rolls and modifiers, bookkeeping units experience and player favor.

Question: Why does not BiltAid do all that and adapt panels, rules, etc to years and rules exception and all the rest???? Why is it missing input check and does not have bells and whistles?

Answer: IF you have the time to do that I will happily send you the source code. IF I had the time to do that I would have to charge BCR community my $/hr rate which exceeds $80.

[Seahawk-vfa201]

Originally posted by 88mm:

For my language; sorry. Don't mean to be rude or upset people. My English isn't the best, that's wy i have a hard time finding the right words and to explain myself.

Fine. No hard feelings.

[...]

The reason i don't find it attractive is simple, i know i can do it. With relative ease, with no exitement (boring battles). So i see no challenge in it. That's a pitty, it could have been so much more then a "paper and pencil"-race as "look at me; i have 4 cracks, 7 vets" type of game.

That is not the goal (have many cracks or vets). I had an lost them and had them again.

In your posts you said it was too difficult: "no excitment (boring battles)"? Have you TRIED to win a battle when at SAME time keep your men alive? You are for the highest challenge in CMBB. Winning against the AI is piece of cake man! Doing it with no casualties is a different struggle.

Also, when you start winning a lot but having your squad degraded to Green and Conscript because you care little for your losses: "Take that Hill at all costs" then even winning against the AI becomes a challenge.

Get to that Hill, take it! Hold it till the last man ! If you succeed, you're awarded. If not, the campaign is in jepordy.

Looks like you are approaching the BCR rules at a different level. Your approach is of the brass in Berlin who says exactly that: "Get that Hill at all costs"

BCR point of view is that of the Captain on the field that knows that if he takes that hill and looses all men then, if he is still alive he (as it happens) faces a court martial asking why he is still alive when all his men are not and if he instead he is dead then the war is over for him: no reward.

To understand the *spirit* of BCR get down to the lower level, the officer who is responsible for his men: his vision of the war is not to make it so that his General will get one more medal, his vision is to make it through as best as he can and that means also "**** THE ORDERS, that bastard in Berlin will not make me and my men die for that ****ING HILL" if you know that that order will simply wipe out your men. You are not advancing till the last man (for that CMBB simulate Fanatic units).

You do your best but your Campaign vision is restricetd to your KampfGruppe and the 4 officers of your platoons.

In that respect many BCR player keep their CO unit well far from fight not to risk them, hence one more hint that in BCR you are role-playing the platoon Captains.

Concerning loosing experience. If you look at the rules there is a range of values for each squad level. OF COURSE if you just made it to Veteran and loose 3~4 men then is very probable that the squad as a whole goes back to regular/green. If you are the the highest end of the Veteran range then your squad will probably stay Veteran even after loosing 30% 40% of his men (in that most of them were veterans already hence will keep the squad at high level even with those casualties)

Finally: if you start treating your units more *realistically* then the losses are going to be very well in the 1~2 range per squad. Running on the plane toward a group of buildings might be fine in a casual CMBB battle, it is a suicide in BCR (for your squads) as it was in real life (and useless the same). That is why Biltong was describing: split units, scout the area, suppression fire, etc.

A casual CMBB player does not do that as the goal is to win the battle. BCR goal is to go through 5 years of battles possibly with a core of men.

Finally: BCR support units. Those are the units that cynically you expose to the risks of the battle. They are not part of your KampfGruppe, hence BCR allows you to play risky, just do that with the support units.

It is a trade off to avoid - as you say - boring battles where you just try to stay alive (but in this case you won't get much experience so also that is not a solution toward the - supposed - race to get veteran/cracks units.

BCR makes you weight the risks of loosing your men: it is no more - in BCR - just win or loose the flag issue.

* what else is CMBB if not that without BCR rules???? *

Personally if BCR rules were simply to check whether you had won - at whatever cost for your units - and then attribute you better units the more you win it would have no interest for me.

But that is me as you is you

For that you only need one of the BCR rules, the one which sets overall player level, then with single value adjust the average of units experience you buy in the CMBB QB and you are set. The QB will give you the right amount of regulars, veteran units required and off you go.

You might want to try this *reduced set* of BCR.

Sure, it is only ONE rule but looks like it answer your needs

[ May 11, 2003, 08:43 AM: Message edited by: Seahawk-vfa201 ]

[Seahawk-vfa201]

88 mm

I come to notice one of your previous comments: "After a week of fierce fighting [...] I would expect to see the first veterans"

LOL

Where did you get that one from? Some comic books?

LOL Veteran after a week of fighting, maybe totalling what?! 2~3 hrs of actual fighting?

And you call BCR rules silly ..

LOL

You made my day... I made the mistake to think the complains were based on some serious thinking

Come back when you are fighting some February 42 battles.

[88mm]

Looks like you are approaching the BCR rules at a different level. Your approach is of the brass in Berlin who says exactly that: "Get that Hill at all costs"

Hey, without that "brass in Berlin" Barbarossa wouldn't have existed

And no, i don't find it amusing to fight 4 a 5 battles in a row against pure infantry, slaughter them with a handfull of tanks, and by the time my infantry arrives there isn't much left to make them score. Ow well, maybe i was unlucky with the dice, dunno. Anyway, i have the feeling that even with a bunch of conscripts i can make it to Moskou. Counting boddybagges is not my pleasure.....

So is it difficult ? Yes. Is het exiting ? Depends what type of person you are, for me ;i think not.

Will i ever finish a BCR campaign ? No.

Seahawk

you make one mistake. Just like my note on "take that hill" and hold to the "last men" i just try to make a point. Some things are easier to follow(see) when you overestimate it. So have all the fun in the world, i don't hold it against ya

[ May 11, 2003, 03:19 PM: Message edited by: 88mm ]

[Seahawk-vfa201]

Originally posted by 88mm:

Hey, without that "brass in Berlin" Barbarossa wouldn't have existed

Sure but BCR intent is not that of *playing* Adolf or equivalent Big Brass.

For that Battlefront developed Strategic Commander.

And no, i don't find it amusing to fight 4 a 5 battles in a row against pure infantry, slaughter them with a handfull of tanks, and by the time my infantry arrives there isn't much left to make them score. Ow well, maybe i was unlucky with the dice, dunno. Anyway, i have the feeling that even with a bunch of conscripts i can make it to Moskou. Counting boddybagges is not my pleasure.....

That is the same mistake Germans COmmanders did. Their first weeks of battle were just that: cutting through Ivan lines like hot knives in butter bars. And Ivan was just able to put that on the field. Infantry and tankettes.

Things changed in the following months. Things changes in BCR following months. At the beginning, first weeks till late summer/early autumn that is what you get: mostly infantry because that is what happened. If Ivan had T-34 on the first day of Barbarossa BCR would have T-34s in the very first battle. Your complains should be addressed to history.

BTW: Nazis lost the war in Russia. After a while Ivan started to kick back. That is also what BCR players experience.

So is it difficult ? Yes. Is het exiting ? Depends what type of person you are, for me ;i think not.

Will i ever finish a BCR campaign ? No.

If you wanted instant gratification (lots of veteran units after 2 hrs of battles) from BCR then nope, you won't get it.

BCR is toward simulating what happened (or could have happened) to a Kampfgruppe during WWII. No veterans ever showed up after first battles in real life. BCR takes time to develop and evolve. If you count battles with one hand then BCR definitely won;t satisfy you.

Seahawk

you make one mistake. Just like my note on "take that hill" and hold to the "last men" i just try to make a point.

Yes, and my point is that it has nothing to do with BCR. That is MY point

Some things are easier to follow(see) when you overestimate it. So have all the fun in the world, i don't hold it against ya

As I said: you look at BCR as the tool for turning CMBB to Strategic Commander. BCR scope is 30min battles, hence tactical level, squad level, platoon level.

Winning the war is the scope of strategy not tactics. The choice for a platoon commander to stay alive is tactical because he wants to be able to fight - hopefully - the day after.

From a strategical point of view the big brass does not care much if Company A is decimated for as long as the long haul objectives are met. From BCR point of you if your company is decimated you are done: War's over. You are dead.

[ May 11, 2003, 05:17 PM: Message edited by: Seahawk-vfa201 ]

[88mm]

Don't you think the germans haven't some veterans around? After polen, Denmark, Norway, France/Low countries and the baltic states.... Think again. And becomes a regular squad green after they lose 2 a 3 men ? don't think so, there is still a majority which survided to teach the newcomers a hard and fast lesson.

agreed, with only 3 a 4 men left things are different.

to be honest, this lvl. of gameplay (tacticle) isn't my favorite anyway. A more strategic game actracts me more. . .

and when it is tacticle, i do like the 1st person approach better and also the realtime vs. turnbased. Things like Panzer Commander comes in mind...

and when strategic, i liked Panzer General over Steel Panthers.

[Jeff Cronick]

Originally posted by Seahawk-vfa201:

BiltAid printing problem on OS X

I verified and there is a problem with USB printers. Have to try with printes accessed via CUPS and IP number.

The code that implements the printing feature is a proved one from Peterk. I'll try to see why it fails on OS X.

Some printing problems on OS X (manufacturers and or drivers) are solved by gimp-print (via Fink)

I am not advocating this as solution though as I did not try it but I'll try to look into it. (These last weeks real life is taking me away from CMBB: I am still in September 1941 fighting Kiev historical battle pack)

Concerning the BiltAid buttons for attached units. BiltAid is an evolving program which is supposed to - in the future - cover all options for all years.

Its limit is that it expects the user to know about BCR rules hence it is an aid not a substitute to knowing the rules.

On 41 you cannot get a tank as attached unit, on 45 it might well happen.

Reminder: BiltAid is not industrial-strenght robust: if you want to make it crash you will succeed. BiltAid happily accept garbage from user input and - as happily - will spit out garbage: there is no check on user input.

Finally, use BiltAid after you know about the rules: it is a tool that will do the calculations for you, look after die-rolls and modifiers, bookkeeping units experience and player favor.

Question: Why does not BiltAid do all that and adapt panels, rules, etc to years and rules exception and all the rest???? Why is it missing input check and does not have bells and whistles?

Answer: IF you have the time to do that I will happily send you the source code. IF I had the time to do that I would have to charge BCR community my $/hr rate which exceeds $80.

Thanks Seahawk for the update on the OS X printing issue. I look forward to hearing if you find a solution for USB printing. I'm not sure what the GIMP-PRINT thing you are referring to is, but if you test it and it works, I'd be willing to give that a try.

One other update to Biltaid that I might suggest is to make the player experieince level selectable from the default setup. I definately need all the help I can get (I'm still new to CMBB) and I wanted to make sure I was a "Conscript" in BCR to get the benefit on the dice rolls. The only way I could find to change the player experience was to use the custom setup and then I had to manually enter all the units. Now I know I only needed to do this once, but it sure would make it more convenient to be able to change the player experience level on the main screen. Someday I hope to win 6 battles in a row and then I may need to increase my level from conscript to green. It could happen you know.

Thanks for the reply and for your support on the Biltaid program.

[Seahawk-vfa201]

Originally posted by 88mm:

Don't you think the germans haven't some veterans around? After polen, Denmark, Norway, France/Low countries and the baltic states.... Think again.

US veterans were mostly at training camps where recruits were sent to war after few weeks of training.

Sure there were elite units and veteran units. But how many? The majority. Strongly doubt so. What's more how many had real battlefield experience. Maybe some veteran from Spain campaign but not SO many.

BCR addresses the most common case: regular units. Anyway, nothing in BCR rules prevents you to start with experienced squad if that suits you.

And becomes a regular squad green after they lose 2 a 3 men ? don't think so, there is still a majority which survided to teach the newcomers a hard and fast lesson.

agreed, with only 3 a 4 men left things are different.

Depends where the regular unit is: if it has only 10 points of exp then as soon as it looses 1 gets to 9: BINGO, Green!

If it has (Veteran-1) regular level then nope, it won't turn into green after loosing a couple of men. What is more, if it causes lots of casualties the loss of men is counterbalanced so most of the time a unit (even with losses) simply does not change status (or advance just a little).

to be honest, this lvl. of gameplay (tacticle) isn't my favorite anyway. A more strategic game actracts me more. . .

You have just confirmed my point

and when it is tacticle, i do like the 1st person approach better and also the realtime vs. turnbased. Things like Panzer Commander comes in mind...

and when strategic, i liked Panzer General over Steel Panthers.

Have you looked at Strategic Commander? There is a demo available to download. Must be the kind of war simulation you are looking for. Just go to Battlefront home page.

[ May 11, 2003, 05:27 PM: Message edited by: Seahawk-vfa201 ]

[Seahawk-vfa201]

Originally posted by Jeff Cronick:

Thanks Seahawk for the update on the OS X printing issue. I look forward to hearing if you find a solution for USB printing. I'm not sure what the GIMP-PRINT thing you are referring to is, but if you test it and it works, I'd be willing to give that a try.

One other update to Biltaid that I might suggest is to make the player experieince level selectable from the default setup. I definately need all the help I can get (I'm still new to CMBB) and I wanted to make sure I was a "Conscript" in BCR to get the benefit on the dice rolls. The only way I could find to change the player experience was to use the custom setup and then I had to manually enter all the units. Now I know I only needed to do this once, but it sure would make it more convenient to be able to change the player experience level on the main screen. Someday I hope to win 6 battles in a row and then I may need to increase my level from conscript to green. It could happen you know.

Thanks for the reply and for your support on the Biltaid program.

It surely will happen: just kill and avoid to be killed

Your suggestion concerning player experience might well get into next update (when? No idea ;-} )

PS

Concerning your approach with the Custom Campaign. Think of it: after all you got a nice experience with BiltAid interface. I might consider forcing everyone to enter manually the battle group

(sadistic expression on my face )

[ May 11, 2003, 05:34 PM: Message edited by: Seahawk-vfa201 ]

[88mm]

Seahawk

thnks for the time and effort taken to discuss matters with me. I love a good discussion

I've seen strategic command and aldo it's fun for a hour, it isn't what i am looking for. The gameplay is too much "compressed". Like a RPG were i can play for months, i don't mind if a game takes longer then a few hours. One of the best games i've played was "Accros the Rhine" from Microprose. A oldie, buggy but the scene i liked the most. Sure, there were things you missed, but it came close. A bataljon-sized battles, where you enjoy the fight in 3d and 2d. Briefings befor, where you decide which % of ammo you mounted for the Tank-Co's (this is a big miss in CMBB, no control at all). So when intel reported mostly infantry on the other side, the Pz. Commander made sure that e few more HE were loaded, and less AP. Were you have control over resting troops, giving the tanks a day off to fight another day and that sort of managment. And in battle, let the troops fight at their ability. You only control where you want them to go/have and how to do it , (probe, assault, move, deliberate defence, static defencene etc) How they perform then depends on their experience and what the enemy has put up against them.... very realistic approach and very unpredictable i think. also it allows for some larger battles with lots of unit without the time-consuming micro-managment of controlling every single men/squad on the field. You control platoons, companies and when needed and/or prefered, you even control that one single tank. The thing i missed was control of research and development, production and control over the whole battlefront. Would love to decide where and when to deploy this division or start a advance. where you should respond on the enemie where he was trying to make a break against you, iow; to control the front but also to play those battles and view your bataljons/div. in action. Without cleaning every solders rifle and to point them out how to walk and where to go. I asume they know what to do and how to do it. Afterall, why train them ?

so Stratig Command is extremely boring. You click on icons, you hear boem boem, and there ya go... great, not. would have been fun 10 years ago, but this is 2003. After Panzer General 1,2 and 3 and Steel Panters 1,2,3 and SPWAW it's time to move a step up. Not to stick with the " old concept".

[Robert Olesen]

Interesting discussion - thanks.

88mm, you just gave me a way to - possibly - add some spice to my own campaign (which incidentally I don't think you'll like much more than BCR): Adding a strategic (or divisional) objective that affects the amount of favor you get from a battle on top of the ordinary QB result. Things like, Rapid advance, Hold at all cost, Delay that would affect the amount fo favor you get for causing/having losses, holding flags and exiting units.

I need to think it over for a while, as there is the problem of perspective that Seahawk brought up: How applicable is a strategic/divisional objective to a single small scale battle? But it should add interest and give the player a more interesting job to do than just beat the AI.

[88mm]

Glad to see some people actualy get some ideas from my mind-bubbles :cool:

Some thought about a new Campaign;

-less auxilary units (taskforces)

this to avoid/prevent the abuse of such troops as "cannon flodder".

-a more "balanced" MAIN TaskForce or kampgruppe

with a recon section, flak section and AT/INF gun section.

-auxulairy support should primairy excist of;

1- artillery support (yes/no) roll/dice

2- mortar support (yes/no) roll/dice

3) air support (yes/no) roll/dice

and only sporadic a extra Tank/bataljon, Inf Company or other group to support in a major conflict. (a blitz, or a fill the gap operation)

just some ideas...

[Seahawk-vfa201]

Originally posted by Robert Olesen:

Interesting discussion - thanks.

88mm, you just gave me a way to - possibly - add some spice to my own campaign (which incidentally I don't think you'll like much more than BCR): Adding a strategic (or divisional) objective that affects the amount of favor you get from a battle on top of the ordinary QB result. Things like, Rapid advance, Hold at all cost, Delay that would affect the amount fo favor you get for causing/having losses, holding flags and exiting units.

I need to think it over for a while, as there is the problem of perspective that Seahawk brought up: How applicable is a strategic/divisional objective to a single small scale battle? But it should add interest and give the player a more interesting job to do than just beat the AI.

You know what? THERE is this kind of campaign organized which let me thinks would appeal need as 88mm ones.

I do not remember in which thread but they were looking for Axis and Allied commanders.

Essentially the idea is to combine strategic issues with tactical battle outcomes. I do not know how well it is organized but it has lots of potential.

The main idea is that of managing wa effort between all others commanders (in a sort of RPG) and then when appropriate solve tactical issues with a QB in CMBB. The outcome would affect the general strategic situation.

From personal recollection: It requires quasi-permanent contact with other commanders (various level thereof, down to single kampfgruppe as in BCR). Movements and objectives are taken care at a main (Game Master level) which would then tell each side whether the bridge they are attempting to cross is indeed protected by opponent forces and provide the relevant (or missing) Intel, then a battle is generated.

The problem I see in it it is that it would easily be screwed up (people living, lack of commitment, whatever). Paraoic? No, personal experience.

Years ago (CMBO) I was arranging and organizing team battles in CMBO. I had two teams of 4 people each. We were building the situation , the Intel, setup the Companies and then each player had in command one company. Intermediate orders were done via Saved games then the team leaders were exchanging files and distribute among team members.

Although was great fun, you could not control what the other company commander was doing (just agreeing on common deployments and concerted maneuvers) which added to the uncertainty and fog of war.

Know what? NEVER have finished one of those bloody battles :-{{{{{

[Seahawk-vfa201]

Originally posted by 88mm:

Seahawk

thnks for the time and effort taken to discuss matters with me. I love a good discussion

My pleasure

I've seen strategic command and aldo it's fun for a hour, it isn't what i am looking for.

K, I have not looke dat it myself: just read the description. Thought might appeal you.

A bataljon-sized battles, where you enjoy the fight in 3d and 2d. Briefings befor, where you decide which % of ammo you mounted for the Tank-Co's (this is a big miss in CMBB, no control at all). So when intel reported mostly infantry on the other side, the Pz. Commander made sure that e few more HE were loaded, and less AP. Were you have control over resting troops, giving the tanks a day off to fight another day and that sort of managment.

You have never used the CMBB Editor with BCR, right? This is exactly what it is used for. Especially for Tanks

And in battle, let the troops fight at their ability. You only control where you want them to go/have and how to do it , (probe, assault, move, deliberate defence, static defencene etc) How they perform then depends on their experience and what the enemy has put up against them.... very realistic approach and very unpredictable i think.

This is actually the best way to play CMBB and get great results: restarin from micro-management. Issue general orders, advance, move to contact, go there cautiously and hide, follow vehicle and let them choose the path (they try the best to be most of the time under cover: you can't beat them, and let them fight (ie choose target) most of the time themselves. Use the cover arc, set ambushes and let the troops do the fight. Works the best.

also it allows for some larger battles with lots of unit without the time-consuming micro-managment of controlling every single men/squad on the field. You control platoons, companies and when needed and/or prefered, you even control that one single tank.

You know you may double click a CO unit and issue the same command to all units under his command, do you? Works best when issue long distant movement commands then you see, for example, how each units decides to get from point A to B and fight in between. Then you may modify - if you deemed needed - each waypoint and modify action there.

The thing i missed was control of research and development, production and control over the whole battlefront. [...]

Looks like a combination of Strategic Commander and CMBB ?!

[...]

and to point them out how to walk and where to go. I asume they know what to do and how to do it. Afterall, why train them ?

As I said, this is indeed possible in CMBB. I do this all the time.

so Stratig Command is extremely boring. You click on icons, you hear boem boem, and there ya go... great, not.

It would be nice if it fired up a CMBB battle instead of boum boums

[ May 12, 2003, 07:59 AM: Message edited by: Seahawk-vfa201 ]

[88mm]

LOl. Yes, i know the "double-click" feature for Hq's. But they lack some features i liked in "accros the rhine". such as: Controlling a platoons/ formation with one click of the mouse:

line, column, wedge etc.etc. This sort of action helps to organize things quick, instead of the time-consuming 1 by 1 approch. Just love formation, it's so militairy

Use of editor; Tried it, but have some fallbacks. You can't start it as a scenario/QB anymore. You have to generate the map and set the flags yourself. Atleast, that's my experience. Anyway, again the timeconsuming 1 by 1 approach to achieve things, and that in a game which is timeconsuming on itself already. A much more user-friendly approach would be a selection before the battle; a one-click solution to equip your tanks and other stuff. Take for example the unit window; why another button for info/kills ? Could have just as easily being seen on the same panel as your unit-info. Again, a extra click. Now a extra click isn't that bad you could say, but if they are all over the place and you must do it all the time it just aint fun. Exactly in a timeconsuming game with such a control you don't want to saddle the users with a user-interface that isn't very efficient. Ow well, that's another story

And plz., don't mix SC with CMBB. SC you can forget for what i have in mind. As said before, it's way too much compressed and simplistic. The strategic control should be more sophisticated.

Picture a front, 600 miles width, divided in sectors (maps?) with all divisions present on a overal (strategic) map with flags/div. no.

OKW orders a assault in sector *.* (ardennes?, Kursk?) so your attention goes to that sector. The map represent a more or less correct terrain for that sector. You have a Intel-report and some advice about expected enemy strenght. You select the batlajon(s)(or Co's) to engage (and which stay in reserve/rest/re-inforce). And play that battle (optional auto-result; not my favorite, but for the pure strategist and the lazy). But the same day the enemy can launch a couter-attack in another area, so you could fight there too to prevent a enemy breakthrough (and if there's a Stratetic Reserve placed not too far away from that area use them to strenghten the defence/fill the gaps or even a make a massive counter-strike; that will teach them )

Afcource i see the difficulty in it for the coders to get it done. Is it possible ? yes? (seen something like this in "across the rhine") Is it difficult to implement in a game, hell yes. Is it interesting, absolutely (when it's done right)

Afcource, you shouldn't control the whole battlefield. Only the area's where your fav. Bataljon/Co hangs around. But for a overal Strategic control, you can add some interesting actions. What also was fun in äcross the rhine" 'when you occasionaly forgot to use your arty and/or planes, the Co commander did notice and used it himself where he wanted it. Great, a Hq who can think for themselves

Afcource, the better the experience of the Co Hq is, the better they point the enemy ...

Seahawk

It would be nice if it fired up a CMBB battle instead of boum boums

YEEEEEssssss

ps:

This is actually the best way to play CMBB and get great results: restarin from micro-management. Issue general orders, advance, move to contact, go there cautiously and hide do this all the time , follow vehicle explain? and let them choose the path (they try the best to be most of the time under cover: you can't beat them, and let them fight (ie choose target) most of the time themselves my way too . Use the cover arc what's the bonus off it? , set ambushes doesn't work in a assault, does it? and let the troops do the fight. Works the best.

[ May 12, 2003, 11:41 AM: Message edited by: 88mm ]

[Jeff Cronick]

Seahawk,

I have another Biltaid question for you if you don't mind. I just finished my 2nd battle (and even achieved a Total Victory, will wonders never cease?) and I ended up capturing some prisoners. My question is about how to enter these in the Biltaid favor section. In Biltaid there is a place for "prisoners lost" in both the friendly and enemy sections. If I captured 2 squads and 2 HQ's do I put these in my "friendly" section or in the enemy's section. The wording "Prisoners Lost" has me confused. Are these prisoners that I have taken and then they reverted back to the emeny side, is that what is meant by Prisoners Lost? Can a prisoner revert back to the enemy side? Or is this just referring to prisoners that I capture? By the way, I did put the right number in the AAR section (that one I just read off my AAR screen).

Any help clarifying the "prisoners lost" fields would be most appreciated.

[Seahawk-vfa201]

Originally posted by Jeff Cronick:

Seahawk,

I have another Biltaid question for you if you don't mind. I just finished my 2nd battle (and even achieved a Total Victory, will wonders never cease?) and I ended up capturing some prisoners. My question is about how to enter these in the Biltaid favor section. In Biltaid there is a place for "prisoners lost" in both the friendly and enemy sections. If I captured 2 squads and 2 HQ's do I put these in my "friendly" section or in the enemy's section. The wording "Prisoners Lost" has me confused. Are these prisoners that I have taken and then they reverted back to the emeny side, is that what is meant by Prisoners Lost? Can a prisoner revert back to the enemy side? Or is this just referring to prisoners that I capture? By the way, I did put the right number in the AAR section (that one I just read off my AAR screen).

Any help clarifying the "prisoners lost" fields would be most appreciated.

Quick answer to let you advance in the campaign. input those numbers in the enemy section.

Prisoners lost. Indeed wording is confusing. Means how many of your men the enemy has captured. Put this number in your (friendly) section.

Squad and HQ stands for # of regular soldiers captured (squad) and # of officers captured (HQ)