points

[tacitrain]

Anyone know why sometimes allied points cap out at a certain number? On my map I cant give the allies any more units for some reason.

[Dandelion]

You mean size limits for forces, when constructing scenarios?

Regards

Dandelion

[tacitrain]

yea im making a mission, a rather large one. i have 8000 points for germans, and 11800 for allies, it might seem like enough but id like to add some more. It just wont let me, its like it can only have so many unit slots. I can have more points I guess by adding 5 tanks instead of a platoon.

[ May 11, 2003, 03:50 PM: Message edited by: tacitrain ]

[tacitrain]

a side question: What type of artillery was most used on the allied side? And did they use it(arty) alot?

[ May 11, 2003, 04:33 PM: Message edited by: tacitrain ]

[sanman]

Tacutrain, you can only have so many units in the scenario (256 or something for each side) . It doesn’t matter if it is a tank or Zook. I have built scenarios with over 16,000 points per side by editing ammo, and experience after choosing forces. Build your infantry first (at Battalion level) to the max level. Then trade things you don’t need in the battle for things you do. For the attack side you might want to get rid of some 60mm mortars, Zooks and extra Platoon HQ’s for more tanks, spotters, etc.. For the defender up grade your guns, trade MG’s for concrete Pillboxes, mortars for artillery etc. If you want to check out my Scenario’s they are at the scenario depot under new CMBO operations (Hells Hole, Hells Lake)

Sanman

[tacitrain]

Ah, alright. Thanks for the info on that. Ill be sure to stop and take a look at your senarios as well.

Tacit

[Dandelion]

There you go Sanman, here's the soulmate you were asking for, with a crush for huge battles.

Yes, the allies used a lot of artillery. About 60% of structures were destroyed in the Normandy area during the fighting. Not all of it by allied artillery of course, but most. It's a majestic - or apocalyptic - rate of destruction.

However, there is a slight complication in CMBO (of you're working with CMBB, they tell me this problem is already solved, so you can skip the rest below).

The problem is the spotters themselves.

The allies were on the attack for most of the time. You prepare an attack by bombardment and barrages, but once the troops are on the move, heavier artillery (Divisional calibres of 105 and 155) has very limited chance of intervening.

Wireless sets (assaulting troops could not roll along wire) of the time were unreliable, cumbersome and short ranged. Contact was at best uncertain and could not be - and was not - relied upon. This is well illustrated in ASL rules, for example, but not in the CMBO engine (but apparently in CMBB). Artillery fire control systems were not what they are now and calling in unprepared strikes was an extremely dangerous business, with high risk of friendly casualties (which were actually quite frequent, even with well planned strikes). In fact, if an assault stranded on heavy opposition, and a heavy artillery strike was needed to get ahead, the entire assault would normally be halted, the troops ordered to retreat to safe distance, and wait. To stop an assault in motion was an arduous, confusing and risky business. Commanders had normally to be contacted by runners, and they in turn had to get their orders through to the troops, in the chaos of an advance, in such a manner that they all stopped and started to fall back.

Yet the allies did it several times, with IMHO amazing rate of success AFAIK. They seem to have had superior command and control to German forces.

But, normally they did not. Assaulting troops tended to rely on direct fire instead, using their battalion (mortar) and regimental (infantry guns and heavy mortar) support, units that were under the control of local command. They also used SP assault artillery, firing direct. Midway was the pre-planned barrage, that could be called in (or not called in) by local command. Such could typically not be redirected or altered, simply ordered. But they were also dangerous, as it was as uncertain to radio in a negative as a positive.

The defender had another situation entirely, with artillerymen carefully mapping their surroundings and with reliable solid wire communication. Here the CMBO spotter - had he been immobile - becomes quite realistic.But of course the attacker might have succeeded to cut wirecommunications with his pre-bombardment (often a priority target), and then the defender was in the same situation as him. Both sides would fire harassing fire on rear areas to prevent movement and, in fact, to kill runners. Including runners with artilery fire missions.

Defenders always tried to hit the attacker when most sensitive - i.e. in assembly areas and thus normally out of CMBO scope - if he knew when the attack was coming. Surprisingly often, he did. The Germans specialised in firing rocket salvoes at exactly Zero hour for an enemy attack, the rockets landing among the ranks of infantry packed tight and advancing. This hit the British/Canadians quite a few times during the Normandy fighting.

So if you're designing scenarios, you might want to set the phase you are depicting to post-pre-bombardment, reducing the defender force to illustrate effect, rather than to hand out spotters to the attacker controlling above-Regimental support. Otherwise, the attacker will enjoy the benefits available at first to the Yanks in the Vietnam war, with Long Toms at the beck and call of individual company commanders, superior maps, superior fire control and 85% success rate in radio contact Don't worry though. They'll manage fine with regimental level support.

You might also want ot reduce the attacker, illustrating defender strikes in assembly areas, if such have taken place. Rather than giving him heavy support via spotters. Especially if wires have been cut by heavy shelling.

Regards

Dandelion

[sanman]

Very good observations Dandelion. We do need more huge scenario designers as well as players . I have used Artillery a lot in my scenarios on both sides. I give each spotter the max amount so in the first battle they have tons which goes down dramatically in re-supply. I only give a couple reinforcement spotters later in the operation. Since these are large pre planned assaults by the Allies on fortified Axis positions I think its accurate. I have read that the Allies would pound Axis positions before attacking (11,000 rounds in a hour for a regimental assault). We don't have the time to do that. I do agree that the timing of the Allied fire is to short and indirect fire to accurate in CMBO, but feel that the killing of a spotter eliminating a whole battery makes up for the cut wire line. Artillery is also is a great equalizer when one side is losing badly but a lot depends on the weather. In the PBEM I'm playing the artillery has kept us both on or toes. You should see the battlefield after 3, 25 turn battles. Looks like a 11,000 round barrage :cool: .

Sanman

[tacitrain]

I used to give the attacker lots of heavy arty, but recently I havent been putting much in at all. Thanks for the arty info though, ill use that in my senario pre-designs.

About how many battles and turns do you usually put in your big operations?

[ May 11, 2003, 08:39 PM: Message edited by: tacitrain ]

[sanman]

Tacitrain, You need to give the attacker enough time to fight their way to the back of map, but not so much they can take their time. The only way to make sure it’s fair to both sides is to play against the AI. Somewhere between 120 and 140 turns in 5 to 7 battles is a good place to start. Reinforcements are also critical to a good game. A large reinforcement in the middle of the game and the rest coming as reserves is also a good place to start. BTU Arty really needs to be appropriate for the operation historically. Sometimes you expect a lot of Arty, sometimes you don’t. To be interesting your operations should have some historical reality.

Sanman

[tacitrain]

How exactly does the regimental reinforcement thing work. Scheduled reinforcement is obvious, but I havent tried the other yet.

[sanman]

All reserves come when the AI thinks you need them. They come at the beginning of a battle like the reinforcements. First to come is battalion, then regimental finally Divisional. They can come separately or all at once depending on what the AI thinks you need (I have no idea how the AI figures it out). If your real good you can even win without ever getting the reserves. It really ads a lot of unpredictability to the game. You can be winning when your emery gets their reserves which can allow them to narrow the game. Arty can also do that.

Sanman