JerseyJohn Posted November 24, 2002 Share Posted November 24, 2002 Wachtmeister -- Sounds like the key, or at least one of them. Concerning the overall topic -- I think hans_micael was essentially correct about Turkey much earlier in this post. She had been very badly burned as the Ottoman Empire -- to the extent that England and France actually drew up plans for the country's complete dismembering in partnership with Greece, but the plan was dropped at Versailles (leading to the Greek-Turkish war of the early '20s as mentioned earlier, either here or in one of the other never ending forums and was wary of losing everything by alligning with the losing side. Most of the comparatively few accounts I've found of Hitler and the lunatics in his foreign office trying to get Spain, Portugal and Turkey to enter the Axis have been comical. To begin with, prior to the Polish campaign, Germany hadn't devoted much diplomatic effort to enticing either Turkey or Iraq or Persia into the fold because it was well known that all three nations had strong anti-British/French elements and numerous pro-Axis sympathizers. It was generally assumed that -- when the opportune moment arrived -- there would only be last minute details to work out. Diplomatic efforts were focused much more on the Balkans and the West. It has to be remembered that, until the actual invasion of Poland nobody was entirely convinced Britain and France would stick by their commitment -- France, especially, as prior to the Sudatenland she was a supposedly ironcald ally of Chechoslovakia. In the original Axis plan, circa late '38 with Munich behind them, the plan was for Hitler to start his war in 1941 at the earliest -- either in Poland or the Low Countries or Scandanavia, it was a bit vague. Both Mussolini and Franco were receptive to that as it provided enough time -- in Italy's case to finish an armament program and for Spain to finish consolidating it's position and getting the ecomomy back in order. By starting his invasion two years early Hitler caught both his sidekicks by surprise and neither of them were even remotely prepared for war. The failure of Italy and Spain to enter the war caused more peripheral Axis sympathizers like Turkey and the Middle Eastern states to begin hedging their bets. Even the most pro-Axis Turks were, from the start, talking in terms of regaining the Middle East possessions lost by the Ottoman Empire in the First World War (part of which was the new nation of Iraq, also being courted by Germany till it's pro-axis coup in '40 was put down with British intervention). They hadn't forgotten that in that war Germany had convinced them to attack Czarist Russia in the Caucassus -- exactly as Hitler wanted them to do in the sequel -- and they also hadn't forgotten that, while they were busy in the mountains and in the Balkans/Dardenielles, Britain and France had defeated her in the south. Consequently, they were always adament that this time they wouldn't enter till after the USSR was either defeated or driven out of the Black Sea region. They made those conditions pretty clear but Hitler kept hearing what he wanted to hear, which very often varied from what was actually being said. Presumably he felt the situation had changed sufficiently with the Fall of France for Turkey to move safely without fearing attacks from the Middle East. If Italy had any real offensive ability in Lybia he might have been right as the two could have worked in a strategic pincers drive on the Suez; but the Italians were a paper lion, though I doubt that figured in Turkey's reasoning at first, it had to have been a factor after the British routing of their Cyrainica armies. --- * --- Italy's effectiveness depended, in large part, on the British being knocked out of her Gibraltar stronghold, making Egypt a distant outpost and virtually isolating Malta. But none of that could come about while Spain was neutral. Which was why Italy kept stalling -- Ribbentrop kept telling Ciano not to worry, Spain would be entering any day now! At the time Franco was telling Ribbentrop on another phone line that he hated the communists and felt betrayed by Germany's pact with the USSR! :mad: In 1939/40 Franco was dead set against joining the Axis for obvious reasons already stated. To make things really farcical Hitler sent the head of the Abwehr, Wilhelm Canaris to soften him up and Canaris took him aside and talked him into neutrality -- Franco's fears of Germany were unfounded as most of Wehrmacht was already being transferred east -- if Spain joined the Axis Germany would be unable to either help her defend her coast against British incursions nor bolster her economy to make up for the loss of British trade, etc. -- how'd you like to have Canaris working for you! Then the double agent admiral did the same for Portugal, also run by a dictator, Salazar. Meanwhile Hitler, never suspecting Canaris had his own agenda, went crazy trying to figure out why these presumably sympathetic fascist dictators weren't throwing in with the Axis. Admiral Wilhelm Canaris, head of the Abwehr intelligence network and a secret anti-nazi! Of course Hitler's brand of diplomacy didn't help. He offered Franco Gibraltar but wanted one of the Canary Islands for a naval base. Franco replied that he had no problem with Britain in Gibraltar and like the Canary Islands as they were. Hitler did a slow burn. He couldn't offer any of French North Africa -- which is what Franco really wanted -- because he was still trying to get Petain and Vichy as true member of the Axis -- Germany still pined for what remained of the French Navy. The two dictators in their only meeting. After the conference Hitler's smile was not as pleasant. Another tragic comedy, Hitler kept dangling the release of French POWs and the return of the French mineral deposits but only after he got the Donitz Basin up and running, etc., but the old marshal, so often called a pro-nazi traitor or senile collaborationist, wasn't buying it. About that time Molotov was in Berlin and in the middle of a diatribe about Britain's collapse a timely air raid occurred. Ribbentrop resumed the conversation in the bomb shelter and Molotov pointed a finger at the ceiling and asked whose bombers were disrupting things. :confused: Germany's diplomatic methods in the Balkans were even more subtle. Hungary was already extremely pro-German long before the war but with Yugoslavia, before broaching the alliance issue hours of home movies of burning Rotterdam and Warsaw were shown. Great Moments in Axis Diplomacy! Afterwards -- Prince Paul seemed more conducive to being Germany's friend. The coups and it's disastrous results proved him right -- in all likelihood Yugoslavia would have filled a role similar to Bulgaria's, a quiet ally in the camp only to assure it's not going over to the Allies. Bulgaria didn't even send troops to fight in Russia. Meanwhile Turkey stuck to her original position and Hitler kept trying to entice them with random gifts of weapons and other commodities -- things his real allies, Rumania and Italy were in desperate need of! And the Turks kept saying, thanks, nice stuff, but we think we'll wait till you actually dispose of Soviet Russia, then, well, perhaps . . .. That nonsense went on thruought most of the war. After the U. S. entry and Rommel's defeat in North Africa Turkey's position was decidedly negative, but Hitler continued to woo them long after there was any chance of their entry. So, with all that in mind, I was amazed when Spain, and even Turkey joined the Axis in some of my games. --- * --- Meanwhile, back in Longon -- The Spring of 1944 rolls around and Winston Churchill, remembering Dieppe, was so impressed with the Normandy invasion plans that he put his own idea into the arena: Why not land in Portugal, where Britain's traditional friends -- the Portuguese -- would wecome them ashore. From there it was assumed Franco would also extend a helping hand and it would be off to Paris via the easy Iberian mountain route! His chief of staff listened patiently and -- in a calm voice -- said he'd resign on the spot if Churchill didn't get out of his office! I guess he wasn't interested in another "soft underbelly" campaign, or perhaps he recalled Gallipoli, Norway, the expidition to Greece, Crete and Singapore. As one British MP says of Churchill in a World at War interview " -- it was always something like Gallipoli with Winston, a fine idea but for some reason or other it just didn't work!" Which is not to meant to give the impression I don't personally have a healthy degree of admiration for the man, because I do. --- * --- As our friend Wachtmeister points out, unless the Axis is really having an incredibly bad game, Turkey's entrance is decisive against the USSR. Spain would be good if the Allies are being played by a human as it secures Gibraltar against the U. S. -- presumably Britain is already gone and a Spanish army can simply occupy the place as a garrison. Against the AI a Gibraltar garrioson doesn't matter much because if Britain is knocked out America vies for immediate and total isolationism! I've only seen it stir to reconquer Canada if I've gone that route -- and if you garrison the place it doesn't even do that. --- * --- Regarding Axis Dipolmacy: There's a Three Stooges short with Curly as Mussolini and Moe as Hitler -- I happened to see it last week and thought aside from being funny, it happened to be awfully accurate. --- * --- "Did he really stop or is there more? I can't figure what gets into this guy, probably he lives in a cave or something!" [ November 24, 2002, 10:18 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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