Counter Invasions by the axis

[Madison]

I have found a nice little caveat in the AI's thinking that really works to the German advantage. Basically once the U.S. is in the war, and moving troops to Britain etc. or are in the process of landing, the German play need send 1 HQ 2 Inf armies and maybe a corps to America and its over. These units can slip out undetected from the south/west France and land without any difficulty.

The AI will keep the bulk to US troops in Britain and even the air and not worry about its home turf at all. The US economic base is so low at 180 that any occupation really makes it impossible to counter. Even a few corps purchases are not enough to save the nation. Once the US falls, Canada is a cakewalk and then you have Britain by the throat, even while your knee deep in Russia.

Perhaps the US economic base needs to increase every turn and they need to garrison the coast or something. It would be nice to have a coastal sea zone area around each nation that is protected waters and as I have said in a previous post is inaccessible by a foreign naval power until war is declared. This would prevent the surprise amphibious invasion forces from parking along the coast then declaring war and landing.

Just food for thought....

John

[ev]

Originally posted by Madison:

It would be nice to have a coastal sea zone area around each nation that is protected waters and as I have said in a previous post is inaccessible by a foreign naval power until war is declared. This would prevent the surprise amphibious invasion forces from parking along the coast then declaring war and landing.

John

[ev]

Originally posted by Madison:

It would be nice to have a coastal sea zone area around each nation that is protected waters and as I have said in a previous post is inaccessible by a foreign naval power until war is declared. This would prevent the surprise amphibious invasion forces from parking along the coast then declaring war and landing.

John

Good idea, but there is a problem:

If we follow your idea as is, Axis invasion of Norway would be all but impossible. You could not land on the week you declare war, hence giving the Allies too much of time to react.

One solution: Allow them to park, along the coast for only one turn. Next turn, either you move them out or you must declare war. this would prevent you from parking them along the coast for an indefinate period of time.

Second solution: Create an abstract Coast Guard. By 1939 many countries had a coast guard of PT Boats and/or Gun Boats that would have detected and caused some damage to an invading force. I would propose that any naval unit parked along the coast of a Neutral or Enemy Nation should be subject to (1) a random risk of detection, and, (2) a small random attrition by the local Coast Guard.

[Madison]

Perhaps you are right, but after thinking about it, I don't see the map being big enough to add coastal territorial waters into the game.. To bad there is not a map editor that allows you to design your own maps and even increase the scale or what not. That would be cool... you could add in all of the US, add some depth to Egypt/Africa and extend Scandanavia to the arctic circle allowing for Murmansk to come into play.

Hubert:

Have you considered having any type of holding box that the allies can allocate surface fleets to protect MPP's from getting sunk by uboats? Sorta like the Third Reich ASW box. Just another random idea.....

Peace

John

[pzgndr]

There needs to be a balance between maintaining surprise for the invader and allowing some response from a neutral invadee. The virtual coast guard idea is already abstractly represented by random landing losses, so we probably don't need more. And anything to permit intervention prior to invasion would seriously hamper the game.

Since minors tend to activate at the end of the turn, perhaps neutrals such as Norway could have a small random chance of activating as a minor ally if their territorial waters (adjacent sea hexes) are violated. This would bring them into play and provide their MPPs to the opposing side, but wouldn't allow a chance for intervention during the turn. As an added benefit, units could enter play entrenched +1. This would make a surprise invasion slightly more risky but not impossible. It would have the same effect as declaring war 1 turn early, without intervention, and that's the whole idea.

Landing losses in general could also be reconsidered in a future version. Beach hexes could be added for reduced landing losses and perhaps to limit invasion sites for heavy units - armies and tank groups. Opposed landings adjacent to enemy units could have slightly higher landing losses. This probably won't happen until SC2, but it's something to think about.

[Henri]

How about replacing one or two of the British fleets by US fleets. As it is these fleets are initially too strong anyway and easily kill the two German subs in the Atlantic and any German ships that venture out from their enclave. But if the Allied player had to defend against a possible invasion of America, using all the ships near Britain would be a big risk.

After all in real History, the British ships were going all the way to south america (remember the Battle of the River Plate?).

Henri

[ev]

Originally posted by Bill Macon:

The virtual coast guard idea is already abstractly represented by random landing losses, so we probably don't need more. And anything to permit intervention prior to invasion would seriously hamper the game.

I see your point, but I meant to apply this Virtual Coast Guard to units that remain parked (for more than one turn) along the coast (enemy or neutral).

Landing pennalties do not keep you from parking an Allied Convoy next to Sicily waiting for Italy to join the Axis and suddenly invade. The Allied player could use the same tactic in northwest Norway, waiting weeks on end until the Axis player finally invaded Norway... And the Axis player could do the same in the US.

[Madison]

I think the problem is that either side must more or less telegraph the amphib invasion so the enemy has ample time to react, thus ruining the effect and impact. The exception to his is a DOW followed up by an immediate landing. The turns represent about a week to two weeks roughly, an amphib should be able to embark and land on the same turn. This would definately add the suprise element back in that is needed. One could disallow any sea borne invasions during bad weather (winter) and desinate certain hexes as unrealistic (mountains and rough coasts), and thus un-invadeable. Perhaps combat could take place by landing boats and coastal defenders which represents fighting ashore so to speak. The cheese element is just moving units to block and killing the entire enemy fleet off with air. Perhaps another element would be to create dummy boats with "phantom" armies (less cost) e.g., Calais, and dupe the enemy. Maybe some reaction element is possible to allow coastal defenders to move to block or something, where otherwise they are froze in place but thats sorta gamey too..

What I hate is when western Europe can more or less be defended with a skeleton crew of corps units, and really not worry about it. They just do the coastal slide and block a 10 boat invasion pretty effectively. SC NEEDS A MULBERRY as a temp port. Even if the allies manage to get ashore, the Op movement is a piece of cake to reinforce at will off the the east front. I think if the amphib was cleaned up a bit and perhaps the ability to operational move units where they should not be able to get to would help a lot. Hope these ideas help....

John

[ November 05, 2002, 05:22 PM: Message edited by: Madison ]

[Flash Gordon]

Originally posted by Madison:

What I hate is when western Europe can more or less be defended with a skeleton crew of corps units, and really not worry about it. They just do the coastal slide and block a 10 boat invasion pretty effectively.

For much of the war, the bulk of Germany's forces were EAST fighting the Red Army.

[ November 05, 2002, 05:31 PM: Message edited by: Flash Gordon ]

[Madison]

I realize that probably 75-80% of the whermacht was in the east, yet I still think that there was a bit more in the other theaters, in particular the west as the war progressed (Diep) more and more garrisons were being allocated and this was becoming a drain on the manpower that was ever so needed in the east.

John