Facts relating to Arnhem/Bastogne

[husky65]

Posted by Commi18 in another (deservedly locked) thread-

re Paras not holding 50 mile areas -

"does anyone remeber Arnhem and Bastogne (spell check). Arnhem the paratroopers lasted 72 days and bastogne for a few weeks. (however with armor support)"

Yes, I do know a fair bit about Arnhem and they did not hold arnhem for 72 days - the bridge at Arnhem was actually held from 17 sept to 21 sept (rather closer to 72 hours than 72 days), which makes you badly ill informed, the bridge was aprox 50 miles behind enemy lines and you will note the combined efforts of almost every airborne soldier the allies possessed was unable to secure and hold a salient that long, let alone an area 50 miles across.

Having dealt with the idea that Market Garden proves that Paras can secure a 50 mile area, we will move on to Bastogne.

The 101st reinforced existing troops in place and did NOT have to jump into combat, so they were able to bring a great deal more ammo and equipment with them, they also did not scatter on arrival, nor did they take the normal percentage of jump casualties - they were employed as standard infantry.

Having said that, they only secured an area of less than 5 (Five) miles across.

You also got the amount of time Bastogne was held for wrong, 101 was moved in on 19 Dec, 22 Dec von Manteuffels forces surrounded Bastogne, 26 Dec Bastogne relieved by US 4th Armd Div.

101st and other units held for 4 days, not for a few weeks.

[Polish Bruce Lee]

wait a second, they didnt leave in 3 days, i read a book by a person who was there "Road to Arnhem" by Donald Burgett and he said it was more then 3 days, and the british were EXPECTING to be relieved in 72 hours but it was a week or so, i knew they (people in Bastogne) were reinforced with other elements, but i still dont see why they cant be in the game because they could serve as a value lession to those players who dont gaurd their cities and plus i think it would be a nice Plan B if you had like no troops gaurding a city

[Guest Mike]

Commi it makes no sense.

Do you really think that there are no forces in all those "empty" cities behind the lines?/

Of course there are - they just aren't represented.

and what would be hte effect of dropping a para corps into such a city??

well for starters it'd be cut off forever - any city not garrisoned is likely to be 2 or more hexes away from the fighting, so that's 100 miles.

If the player had the capability to punch through and capture the city then why not just do it??

Para's are an operational level below what SC deals with.

The way games are built is normally around a particular unit size. They then have some ability to deal with slightly larger or smaller units. In SC the optimum unit is the army - Corps aer a bit of an add on to give a bit of flexibilty.

Parachute ops are at divisional level and are _2_ levels below the optimum so the game is BETTER for leaving them out IMO.

[Polish Bruce Lee]

i never said it made sense, but the advatages are you take their MPP's and it could destract other forces. plus i would think their would be a special supply rule with them because you would normaly air drop the supplies to them, ofcourse you couldnt do it forever, but long enough so the enemy would subtract a few forces from their front so it would allow an nice opening to break through. like i said, i didnt say it makes sense, just listing a few possibilities

[husky65]

Originally posted by commi18:

"wait a second, they didnt leave in 3 days, i read a book by a person who was there "Road to Arnhem" by Donald Burgett and he said it was more then 3 days, and the british were EXPECTING to be relieved in 72 hours but it was a week or so, "

You read a book? congratulations - the dates I gave (4 days) stand, they did not hold the bridge for a week.

To quote Lt-Gen Browning,

Browning 'How long will it take the armour to reach us?'

FM Montgomery 'Two Days'

Browning 'we can hold it for four, but Sir, I think we might be going a bridge too far'.

He was right on both counts.

Holding Oosterbeek (5 miles from the bridge) does not constitute holding the bridge.

"i knew they (people in Bastogne) were reinforced with other elements"

But you don't seem to realise that they were not employed as Paras and only had to hold for 4 days.

" but i still dont see why they cant be in the game because they could serve as a value lession to those players who dont gaurd their cities and plus i think it would be a nice Plan B if you had like no troops gaurding a city"

Are you serious? do you have any idea of the casualties an airborne unit would take (from the jump alone) if dropped into a city? or are you suggesting that they could drop 50 miles (1 hex) from the city and then route march the 50 miles in 1 week/game turn (no big deal) without any opposition (a very big deal).

[Polish Bruce Lee]

yes yes, i have read many books, mostly WWII books, however i am not clear on the events on Arnhem, i am POSITIVE that they were IN the area of 50miles (americans/british) for more then 3 or 4 days

[husky65]

Originally posted by commi18:

plus i would think their would be a special supply rule with them because you would normaly air drop the supplies to them,

No you don't, airdropping supplies is one of the the most expensive ways to move supplies (before the Helo) - it is not practical to supply a corp or army that way (ask the Germans about Stalingrad), airdropping was not accurate, resulted in massive risk to tpt a/c and relied on an ability to hold your DZ, the DZ was a very high priority target for the defender to overrun.

Paras are not supposed to hold for long, they can't carry the kit to make it feasible, no can they take much in the way of heavy weapons and anything dropped in a cargo container, door bundle etc is just as likely to be lost as found.

[husky65]

Originally posted by commi18:

yes yes, i have read many books, mostly WWII books, however i am not clear on the events on Arnhem, i am POSITIVE that they were IN the area of 50miles (americans/british) for more then 3 or 4 days

They held a salient 50 miles long, did not hold the one objective (Arnhem bridge) that made it worth holding and had both flanks exposed to German counter attack.

Being within 50 miles of an objective in a place as small as Holland is not really a challenge, nor does it constitute holding a 50 mile area.

[Guest Mike]

Commi if I had to deal with a large paradrop 100 miles in my rear I wouldn't be taking many front line forces out of play.

I'd do what happened at Arnhem - use resting units, training units, local home guard/militia, etc.

I'd use 2nd line units with a few first line ones to crush the cream of the enemy infantry, and I'd be thankful they gave me the opportunity instead of me having to fight them head on in "conventional" warfare!!

[Polish Bruce Lee]

well yea, so would i but, if your in a jam and cant spare the troops, then you need to take out your 2nd or 3rd line troops, then that leaves you a weakined front line because it has no back up, and you have to acount that there is no home gaurd in SC, but you ofcourse can by a unexperienced corps to act like one, but paratroopers are elite units that would tear home gaurd units into pieces

[husky65]

Originally posted by commi18:

but you ofcourse can by a unexperienced corps to act like one, but paratroopers are elite units that would tear home gaurd units into pieces

Paratroopers are no doubt the most handsome, intelligent, erudite, suave, sophisticated, highly trained and well equipped (personally and professionally) troops available - however they have major limitations that you seem unwilling to acknowledge.

Their kit is good but they can't take much of it with them and can only count on the amount of food, water, ammunition, batteries, medical supplies, etc that they can carry with them - resupply is by no means assured.

That means that as a force their staying power against any well supplied enemy is questionable.

[Polish Bruce Lee]

true true, never thought of that, plus (this i kind of a negetive towards paras) how the hell would you get them out of the area you dropped them it, you couldnt reinforce them. they would probly get the ass kicked pretty fast.

OH yea, this is just a straight queston, who is for and against para, i am aware of the pros and cons, but i would still like to have them in the game

[Guest Mike]

Commi I think all of us would liek a lot more features, but this game is what it is - it is just the wrong scale for para ops.

And no I don't think para's would tear milita/home guard troops a new one. Certainly they'd overwhelm local units, but as Husky pointed out - being tall dark, handsome and fit doesn't stop you running out of ammo, food and medical supplies.

Reserves, training units, etc don't ahve to attack hard - a few front line units can do that. The rest can hold the line, exert some pressure, soak up some of the para's ammo, inflict some casualties and generally keep the poor paras awake at night!!

[Polish Bruce Lee]

all this is true, but i would never use them to go to like warsaw or some location that is unreachable in like a turn or two, the reason to use these guys is to either cap and hold afew MPP

's for a turn or so, or use them like a distraction and then punch a hole in the enemy line to get to your paratroopers

[husky65]

Originally posted by commi18:

all this is true, but i would never use them to go to like warsaw or some location that is unreachable in like a turn or two, the reason to use these guys is to either cap and hold afew MPP

's for a turn or so, or use them like a distraction and then punch a hole in the enemy line to get to your paratroopers

Use them like a distraction? you do know that Paras are volunteers don't you?

IRL you tell an airborne Bn, 'men we are dropping you 300 miles behind enemy lines, do what damage you can until you are wiped out' and just watch the Maroon Berets pile up as they unvolunteer at you.

Reachable in 'a turn or two' is a week to two months depending on season, hardly an amount of time you can expect Paras to hold.

[Guest Mike]

Commi your tactical ideas are fair enough, but you keep ignoring the scale of things - if this was a divisional level game with 5 or 10 km hexes then yep, absolutely have paras.

But then would you also want commando companies in a game that size??

That said tehre is, IMO plenty of room for a good 3-power div-level WW2 game still.

I haven't seen anything as good as a board game from teh Wargamer about 10 years ago the name of which I've completely forgotten - what I remember about it was the Sov's could declare up to 3 contiguous hexes they occupied as an assault army or similar, which doubled their attack factors on the NEXT turn - the Germans usually pulled back in front of them!! lol

[Bruce70]

Paratroopers are no doubt the most handsome, intelligent, erudite, suave, sophisticated, highly trained and well equipped (personally and professionally) troops available

Ahhh, so thats the real reason you're[sic] no longer a para Husky, just didn't fit the ummm... bill, shall we say?

[Polish Bruce Lee]

thats the only really reason that i have my doubts if paratroopers would work in the game is the scale, however, i would like to see how people use them and the differant tactics they use. i only listed a few ideas but i am sure that other peopkle have ideas better then mine, and i would like to see the executed, but the only way to see that is to have them in the game. another thing to use paratroopers is to drop them a hex behind an enemy, soften it up with a suprise attack, even better if FOW is on, and then use you main force to get that push to elimanate the unit and break out of an area maybe. i know this really wasnt used in WWII but hey, its a game. again scale comes into play. maybe a Corps size Para unit attacks an army and the army losts 1-2 while the paras loss 2-4. i know its a high price to pay, but if you break out of an area youve been stuck in, its well worth it

[husky65]

Originally posted by Bruce70:

Ahhh, so thats the real reason you're[sic] no longer a para Husky, just didn't fit the ummm... bill, shall we say?

Yes, you're right - I'm no longer as erudite as I was...