JerseyJohn Posted March 4, 2003 Author Share Posted March 4, 2003 Shaka, Immer Etwas, Minotaur, General Rambo, Liam, Piumarcobaleno, KDG and all other contributors to this Forum. While leaving this area open to all related discussion I've established a new forum centered around the very fine Marine Unit ideas originated by Immer Etwas . Everyone is encouraged to comment in that Forum on matters related to directly assaulting a hostile coastal hex. Please continue posting all other Amphibious Operation Ideas in this Forum. Great Feedback from everyone! Amphibious Landing Unit Forum [ March 04, 2003, 05:40 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piumarcobaleno Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 Maybe a naval unit with very low sea defence and null sea attack, but with very high soft and hard attack and normal ground defence, could represent a particular type of attack, without the need of a new combat rule of retreat. This way one, two or three "Marines" units could attack shore hexes without having to actually land, to make space for a normal corp to touch the shores (let normal units "transported" land to a beach only if there's a marine unit near). Obviously this wouldn't strip away the tactic of the floating corp, it would just make it more expensive (125mmps for the corp, and 400 or more for the marine unit) and risky (525 mpps at stake, not only 125). How about this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted March 5, 2003 Author Share Posted March 5, 2003 Originally posted by Piumarcobaleno: Maybe a naval unit with very low sea defence and null sea attack, but with very high soft and hard attack and normal ground defence, could represent a particular type of attack, without the need of a new combat rule of retreat. . . .Mr P -- Have you gone to the other Ambhibious Forum yet? It describes something very similar to what you've just written. To get there just click on the URL under this line. click here for the Amphibious Landing Unit Forum [ March 04, 2003, 08:33 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minotaur Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 One thing we haven't discuss yet is the high cost of amphibious assault vs the number of troops needed for the "D-Day"... It just occurs to me that UK and US can pay for 1 or 2 amphibious per turn... They need far more than that to make a good "D-Day"... So they'll have to pay week after week new amphibious units, while protecting those already at sea... And when they'll be ready to attack, some unit will be fresh, but some others will have spent weeks, if not a full month at sea... Supply will be long gone for them by then... Not very 'historic'... Any suggestion?... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaka of Carthage Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 Maybe its me, since I am tired. But there are so many Amphib topics now, I can't make sense of what each one is trying to cover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minotaur Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 Originally posted by Shaka of Carthage: Maybe its me, since I am tired. But there are so many Amphib topics now, I can't make sense of what each one is trying to cover. As far as I understand it: - This one is for general ideas on amphibious assault... - an other one is for the creation of a special unit to do the amphibious assault (Marines, Special Boat, etc...)... - the third is about a possible Amphibious Assault Research Technology... Of course, I may be wrong... [ March 05, 2003, 01:49 AM: Message edited by: Minotaur ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted March 5, 2003 Author Share Posted March 5, 2003 Minotaur "Of course, I may be wrong." But, as usual, you aren't. The three forums are exactly as you've mentioned. Agreed we need a limiting factor which would take into account limited quantieties of landing craft. Let's say each side can have ONE such unit per major country at a time. That would be extremely realistic. I define this in greater detail in the Amphibious Landing Unit Forum. link to related Amphibious Landing Unit Forum link to related Amphibious Operations Research Forum [ March 05, 2003, 09:22 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Dave Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 As originally posted by Shaka of Carthage: Without unit limitations, a realistic amphib system would have no chance of success, just as it would in real life if the invasion point was lined with 10,000 defenders every 10 miles. My intention was to assert that there should be NO amphibious landings at all, unless a "marine" type unit is involved. A "marine unit" is not merely a unique USA-type Marine Corps, but a combination of: 1) 15,000 or so marines, 2) 15,000 or so Army (... historical landings in the Pacific indicate this to be true... the Marines mostly fought ashore at the first, but in our game scale of 2-4 weeks, the Army was indeed IMMEDIATELY behind them, if not actually part of the initial invasion), 3) various support and beach-clearing brigades, 4) specialized landing craft and handlers, 5) small naval vessels involved in coastal harrassment and defense against mines & the enemy's smaller craft, and 6) sufficient supply & HQ type attachments, etc, etc. All in all, just about a "corps" sized landing unit. Trying to dislodge a "corps" sized defender, which also includes such specialized personnel as City or Port Security, coastal batteries, civilian resistors brusquely handed small weapons and told to fight or die, and of course! JJ's citizen soldiers running about with lanterns & broomsticks. The sole intent is to get a viable and sustainable military unit ASHORE. Also, to avoid having to take a port on the first few turns, which incidentally makes Brest entirely more important than it actually was. I have never been one who would take everything "literally" and suppose that a "Marine Corps" was actually made up of ONLY 60,000 specially trained marines. Like many other game concepts, it would be a generalized unit that would surely include all the other support craft and personnel that I previously mentioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaka of Carthage Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 Immer Etwas I'm confused by your response. If you look back at a topic I made awhile back regarding amphib invasions, you'll see that everything you say I agree with. The item you quoted was in reference to the fact that as long as you could buy a unlimited number of units, those units would line any coastal area that you tried to invade. And that was in reference to my belief that we don't need a amphib unit that can "force a unit to retreat", since any amphib invasion would be taking place against a hex in SC that does not have a unit in it. It is still a contested landing, otherwise you wouldn't be getting losses like we currently do. Just that no amphib assaualt would take place against such a large density of enemy troops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Dave Posted March 5, 2003 Share Posted March 5, 2003 Shaka of Carthage (... great name BTW... how did you happen to choose it?): I guess I am presuming that the original concept of Air Fleet power (... and, shore bombardment) will be reduced/modified in some new potential iteration of SC. Evidence from my many games reveals that all too often the Air and Ships -- to include Carriers, are simply not enough to dislodge the defender. This is especially true if you employ the strategy of contesting Allied Air assaults right from the very beginning. Then, they cannot build up so very much experience that they are nearly impossible to counter-attack once D-Day has finally commenced. As we realize, the Axis player can simply rotate corps from the northern to western side of France so to foil almost every Allied invasion (... and here I presume that by far the majority of games are solo against the AI... it surely matters that a workable solution be found for all of those who play solo, yes?). After all, the Allies, no matter what the Air superiority, cannot eliminate enough defending units in order to establish a viable beach-head. Sometimes they will get one or two units ashore, but they are then quickly surrounded and pounded down at the defender's leisure. And besides, IMHO, it is not realistic to expect Air and Shore bombardment to clear a hex. I would agree with all of those who argue that Air power, no matter how dominant, simply cannot "kill" a corps sized unit. Reduce readiness mostly, but, that is another thread debate. And so, unlike your premise, mine does NOT assume that we will always be invading an EMPTY HEX. The powerful marine unit is needed to help clear an OCCUPIED hex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted March 5, 2003 Author Share Posted March 5, 2003 Shaka & Immer Good points both ways -- just came to review my citizen soldiers and to make sure their shovels, pitchforks and broom sticks were of the latest issue. Having come here from the Amphibious Unit Forum I have to say I think collectively we're all bringing this problem to a workable solution. Don't want to restate ideas I've already put out, except to say that many feasable ideas are emerging from numerous contributors. I'm sure we'll come up with an improved amphib system shortly. As a bonus it appears new ideas are starting to emerge for other areas, such as airborne operations -- as per Wolfe's posting in the other forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaka of Carthage Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 Immer Etwas Someone else has the name Shaka, so I thought about using Hannibal (one of my heros), then considered the various combinations and choose this one. The methods of our Amphib Assaults systems differ because the concepts behind it vary. Basically apples and oranges. One more point, then on to other things. I think, among the three topics that are discussing this, that people are getting carried away. Amphib assaults were not a priority item in the ETO, unlike the PTO. So any R&D item for Amphib assaults is not appropriate for the ETO. The ETO Amphib operations were very different from the PTO one's, so we have to be careful when justifying statements that we limit ourselfs to how it would operate in the ETO only. Axis needs the ability to perform a Sealion. But other than that, its "amphib" options should not exist. Transports from Port to Port... ok, but nothing beyond that. Solves the problem of transports running amok in the Med. Hmmmm... would also solve the problem of a "amphib" invasion of Sweden, Greece, etc.... things that could not occur. Maybe that would be a easy solution? Amphib assault captures a Port (without having to capture the city) then follow on forces can be landed thru the port (ie normal transports). Anyway, got carried away again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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