Aircraft Tech Levels (aka still working on the manpower issue)

[Shaka of Carthage]

I'm curious... had an epihamy while playing a game.

One way of representing the manpower differences, if the Russians had Indust Tech of 5, but Anti-Tank of 0 compared to the German/UK IT of 0 or 1, and Anti-Tank of 2... now I have the ability to show that the Russians can raise more infantry units (ie less MPP) then the Germans. So in effect, making the manpower cheaper for the Russians than the Germans. See below for my reasoning, if you want.

Thats what got me thinking about the aircraft, how to represent the Russians producing lots of cheap aircraft, to counter the German superiorty.

So my question is this:

Assume the Italian airforce is in the game.

If the Italian Airforce which was considered obsolete, is rated as Lvl 0, then what should the German airforce be at? Purely equipment compared to equipment, not training, leadership, etc. British has obsolete aircraft also (believe the stuff on Malta), and where in the process of building Hurricanes and Spitfires. Hurricanes, Spitfires and ME-109s are considered modern equipment, should they have a tech rating of Lvl 1 or 2? If so, then what is the next step up? Not familar enough with aircraft to know the answer. Figure someone out there would know the answer, and save me the time of looking it up. P51's were suppossed to be the best fighters of WWII.. so are they Lvl 3 or 4? Since "jets" would be Lvl 5.

Lvl 0 ----- obsolete aircraft

Lvl 1 ----- whatever Russians used

Lvl 2 ----- Hurricanes, Spitfires, ME-109s

Lvl 3 ----- ??????

Lvl 4 ----- P-51s (along with Long Range)

Lvl 5 ----- Jets

I'm curious because I was thinking that if Germans and British started with Lvl 2 aircraft, then if we gave the Italians an air unit, at Lvl 0, it would represent the obsolete equipment they had.

================================================

Starting Anti-Tank tech levels

Russia....Level 1

German....Level 3

US........Level 5

UK........Level 2

Fr........Level 2

I am trying to represent the differences in equipment and have some way of abstracting the manpower use. In other words, the Russian units should be cheaper to raise than the German ones, among other reasons because they had more manpower. I've now got some flexibility by manipulating the starting units and the starting MPPs to reflect the manpower issues the various nations had. This, along with the experience bars representing leadership and training and the default levels of Indust Tech, allows me to get closer to representing "national characterstics".

Here is some of my reasoning.

Corps and Armies represent Infantry divisions. Combat power of them is based on artillery. That would be the "soft" factor we have. But we also have a Anti-Tank factor. Units started out with 37mm antit-tank guns (ie 45mm russian model a copy of german 37mm). UK 2pdr is equivalent. Then since more tanks were around, units upgraded to a 6pdr, 76mm, 57mm type weapons. Next step was the 88mm, 17pdrs, etc. At same time, you now get those Assault Guns, Tank Destroyers, etc. So I come up with something like this.

Level 0 ---- rocks, spit, whatever inf can come up with (obsolete stuff like Anti Tank Rifles).

Level 1 ---- Standard A/T Wpns of 2pdrs, 37mm, 45mm.

Level 2 ---- more A/T wpns than normal, but still 2pdr, 37mm, 45mm.

Level 3 ---- A/T wpns 6pdr, 76mm, 57mm.

Level 4 ---- German use of 88mm. Temporary attachment of Tanks or Assualt Guns.

Level 5 ---- permanently attached TD, Tanks, Assault Guns.

[Tigleth Pilisar]

Interesting. I may not be of much value in assigning equipment to your tech chart.

It sounds like your goal was to more represent the cheaper costs of Russian infantry (through industrial production) and the better equipment in the west (through anti-tank).

This pursuit has some value, but in general the concept of "MPP" and the fact that there are only two infantry unit types in the game - army and corps - may reflect it. For example, it is possible that a Russian SC corps has double the men a German corps has, but since they are equiped much less with possibly less advanced equipment, it ends up being that a 10 strength corps may adequately represent them. Perhaps because the Russian corps needs more men in it to get the same "ratings" as a German corps, such a great Industrial production advantage as you suggest for Russia is not warranted.

The other thing I noticed was that you put the US anti-tank at level 5, relative to the others. That is a very significant advantage. I'm not sure what the right number is, but the war starts in 1939. Were US troops at level 5 in 1939? Or more accurately, should they be level 5 in 1941 when in SC the allied player hits Portugal or some other Axis harrassment strategy? Probably not. Perhaps on a relative basis the US obtained some superiority by 1944, but that would be reflected in SC by the Allied player electing to invest in AT research, not getting a big gift.

Personally, I like the idea of not scripting the advantages/disadvantages so much of each side. The randomness of tech can really change the game. A recent opponent was quickly able to get lvl 2 AT in Russia against me - that changes things.

On the other hand, perhaps there should be greater differences in the units between countries as would be more historically acurate. Squad Leader players, for example would know that Avalon Hill tried to reflect many differences between different unit types. I suppose Third Reich would be a better compare to SC, and individual units did have more difference between them.

Personally I would like research itself revamped. It should be more of a continuous cost rather than one time. And perhaps more options - improving recon, entrenchment, interception, movement, engineering/bridge building, stealth, zone of control, improved supply logistics - I'm sure you could think of lots of interesting things. And some research perhaps should be cheaper because they are of less use - for example, who has ever researched sonar in SC?

Not sure if this helps.

[Shaka of Carthage]

I'm not sure if you have read alot of my other posts. So I may be repeating stuff you already know, if so, I apolgize.

It sounds like your goal was to more represent the cheaper costs of Russian infantry (through industrial production) and the better equipment in the west (through anti-tank).

Gist of the majority of my suggestions have been in how to modify SC to behave more like a WWII simulation, as oppossed to a WWII game. One of the things that I have not covered is the issue of manpower (that and oil I feel are the two major resources that determined alot of what occurred in WWII). Having to work with SC as it exists, is there some way to reflect the manpower issue? Germanies manpower was half that of Russia. So Russia could afford the manpower losses as long as they didn't exceed a certain ratio. Not reflected in SC, cause as long as you have the MPPs, you can build the units. Since the economic unit in SC is MPP, I needed to abstract the manpower into something effecting the MPPS. Thats why I came up with using the Indus Tech to reduce the cost of Russian units. Not so much as a reflection of its industrial power. That is more the number of MPPs you produce. In this context, the main benefit of the A/T Tech Level is that it increases the cost of the unit.

That brings us to the "generic" Corp or Army. I in effect have a Red Corp or a Grey Corp. Not Russian or German. What I am trying to do, is turn them into Russian or German units. Since the Corp has three (3) or four (4) divisions, no matter what nation produces it, I needed some way of making them different. The training and leadership issue can be solved by the experience bars (only for the starting units though). German unit would have two or three experience bars. Russian none. And that does bring up the other point, that a Russian real life "Army" would be equal to our SC Corp. I am assuming that my Russian "division" has around 10,000 men.. so four of them would be 40,000 men. While my German division has about 15,000 men... so four of them would be 60,000 men. You would then have to add the non-divisional slice of men in the Corp. I think I am using 20% for Germans, Russian less and US more.

I believe the other point you brought up, was that to make the Corp equivalents, the Russian unit may need more men in it. Thats assuming I want the units to be equal. Instead, I am basing it on the fact that the generic Corps are identical, so my differences have to be in the experience and MPP costs. Basically, if I can get the effect right, the method doesn't matter.

US troops at level 5 in 1939? No. Only because US basically had no Army in 1939. I am using '39 as a starting point for the Germans, UK and French. I have to use '41 for the starting point of the US and Russians. US infantry division in '41 would have had the Level 5, only because for all practical purposes, they had permanently attached tank and tank destroyer battalions attached to them. And the secondary reason, is that they should not be easily raised... US had manpower issues, so instead of the 200 division army, ended up with 90 divisions. So if the US player has his Corps and Armies upon setup, he will have to be very careful, cause he does not have the MPP's to easily replace them if they are lost. Same constraints the US military was faced with.

Regarding research, you think we should be putting MPPs in every turn, not just purchasing a chit and placing it? The problem with MPPs every turn, is that it can become tedious. As far as some research being cheaper... agree that the R&D costs are not the same for each tech, but as long as we have the same relative costs for everyone, we get an appropriate effect.

[ February 22, 2003, 03:41 AM: Message edited by: Shaka of Carthage ]

[Wachtmeister]

Shaka:

With regard to tweaking SC to provide a closer simulation of the historical WWII major power relative strenghts and weaknesses, I agree and have made some similiar posts along some of the same lines. The trick is to come up with changes that simulate WWII conditions without unduly upsetting play balance.

Since the tech advance "catch up" change was included in the v.106 patch, the Russian cheaper unit cost, @ IT 5, accounting for their manpower advantage, will tend to be offset as the Axis also gain IT at an enhanced rate. Eventually, the Axis will have very tough units at a bargain price.

Another option is to provide increased at start experience to simulate better quality units and superior military doctrine. It seems that some combination of tech levels and experience could result in a closer simulation of actual WWII, conditions, and still provide resonable play balance.

I think the only way to test the effect of various combinations of tech level and experience tweaks is to play test them. Should you decide to set up a mod incorporating your ideas, I would be happy to volunteer as a play tester.

[Shaka of Carthage]

Wachtmeister

I agree that by using the IT, if the Axis invest in it, they could "catch up", negating the effect. The only way to counter that at the moment, is to have a "house rule" that would not allow investing in that tech.

I already have plans on using the experience bars to simulate the training (includes doctrine) and leadership. But I still need something to counter Germany and Russia buying and replacing units one for one.

Once I do get these changes straight, I plan to put together a scenario to see how it works. Glad you would be willing to try it.

[ February 22, 2003, 11:33 AM: Message edited by: Shaka of Carthage ]

[Wachtmeister]

In the interim, I've set up a scenerio with an approximation of the combination of IT levels and experience modifiers implied your 1st post.

So far [summer '41) gainst the AI, the Germans have been running wild, however, with the USSR about 4 turns into the war, they have a ton of units, desite huge early losses. USSR also has level +1 jets plus around 800 MPP's "in the bank". I have invested 2 chits in German IT and they are currently at level 2. [would like to avoid house rules if possible] The next year of game turns should show the overall effect of these tweaks and indicate if the Axis require some "detuning", or the Allies some additional enhacement.

Will report back when more data has been acquired.

[pzgndr]

Dgaad was one of the first to start modding the tech levels. I built on this idea with the Campaign mods, giving the Germans and British L1 jets and gun laying radar in 1939 to represent the superiority of their equipment relative to everyone else. 3R provided similar national modifiers for air and naval combat. German and French tanks were bumped up to L1 for their doctrinal and qualitative advantages, respectively. If you start out too high on tech levels, like L2 or L3, then you don't have room to grow and advances you do get take a lot of time. So some combination of increased tech levels up to L1/L2 plus unit experience helps simulate the initial advantages/disadvantages of the different forces and still leaves room for growth and replayability. That's the basic philosophy I used with my mods.

I like that the tech levels are abstract in SC, unlike very specific technologies in HOI. This gives us room to believe L3 German tanks are PzIV's, but they could very well be PzIIIJ75's or PzV's or something completely different in our unique game world. At this scale, we shouldn't focus too closely on such things. However, some benchmarking is useful for modding the later scenarios since starting chits and tech levels are awfully low compared to what happened historically and what usually happens in campaign games.

The manpower issue will haunt us. It may be that some force pool limits could be useful in SC2. Unit cost per factor could increase with each tech level, which was considered but not implemented (cost does increase due to unit size increasing, but the per factor cost remains the same except for IT adjustments.) That alone would allow economics to limit force pools naturally, without trying to micromanage some sort of manpower resource. Players would also get to consider if it's "worth" another tech advance to a higher level that's more costly to maintain.

[Shaka of Carthage]

Wachmeister

Since you have already started a scenario to test some of this out, I'll outline the direction I was going in. I also have a post where I gave the experience bars for each of the nations. If you want it, let me know and I will search for it. Also, did you set the A/T levels like above?

Starting forces (assumes '39 scenario):

Germans would get what they had just before May '40.

Reasoning is that after Poland, they expanded the Panzers forming new units, but only putting half the tank strength in each new unit. However, to keep the player from using them, those new Panzer units would be strength point of one (1). This way the player has to add MPP's a little at a time, unless he is willing to dilute the three (3)? bars of experience. The PG's expanded also, but I don't remember how many. I think we would have somewhere around 40 mech divisions, but I don't have my notes in front of me.

Infantry units went thru an expansion also, but I don't remember the numbers. Remember, for both the mech and non-mech... four (4) division per Corp.

So all those starting German units would be three (3) experience bars. Any newly raised units would be zero (0) experience bars. So Germans can raise new units, or his "veterans" he can keep properly reinforced.

France, as would have in May '40 (but no Tank unit). OR... difference between units in '39 and '40 scenario, give player in MPP points.

Italy, UK, same as France. Italy would get a Air unit. Maybe even a Armor unit (since all they would need is two Armor divisions and two Motorized divisions. Italian Armies would be broken down into Corps for initial setup.

US and USSR get what they had in '41.

Minor nations have no units larger than Corps. Any Armies should be split into two (2) Corps.

Whatever naval units that were already in the process of being built, should be given to the player as a one (1) strength unit.

NOW FOR THE HOUSE RULES...

Germany, Italian, etc infantry units subtract two (2) from Action Points. This would include the Russian Corps. These are your horse drawn units. Only the Russian Armies, US/UK units could operate as motorized units.

The Russian player, before he formed a Russian Army, should be disbanding two 3 or 4 experience bar Corps (ie the nucluese of this "Shock" or "Guard" Army).

UK player cannot build any armor units.

Naval units, other than German subs, cannot be built. Building Naval units from scratch would take two (2) years. I'd rather disallow then add another set of conditions.

Thats about what I can remember. I will edit and add any additional items or changes as I come across them. Hope this helps.

There are still a few other things to work out (like German manpower being "drained" by the SS and Luftwaffe), but those are relativly minor to the above.

[Shaka of Carthage]

Bill Macon

Your mods are one of the reasons I have gotten obssessed with these SC changes. Once I got the real version, played it, then played your mods, I was not satisifed with the standard ones anymore. See what you helped create?

I understand your point about the L1/L2 limit, but I'm not convinced I can reflect the organizational difference and abstract the manpower issue without using higher limits.

Regarding the equipment, the only problem, is that as soon as we get that Tech increase, all of our units reflect it. Even though its abstracted, that means to me that all of the older equipment was replaced by the newer stuff.

Manpower solution for SCII, III, etc can be anything. There are much better methods if we are starting with a clean plate. I've played way too many East Front games where the Russians are willing to lose men as long as it hurts the Germans to change now. It bugs me to no end in SC that Germany can keep replacing units as fast as the Russians can kill them. Takes away the whole "quality vs quantity" thing.

[Tigleth Pilisar]

It sounds like you come up with some interesting "games" in your quest for simulation over gaming.

I think your goal is defeated (only to some extent) by the game design itself. Units are the same. A corps is a corps of any nation and will have the same stats if the same tech level. National differences are incorporated through tech advances available to all other nations. If those nations advance in tech, then the units will be back to equal. Experience and leadership are alther qualities that can be tweaked in an attempt to make units different, but they only start that way - game events can make all units the same.

I agree it would be nice if units were "fundamentally" different. That is more of an SC2 issue that you can only very crudely create in SC1. (Maybe with a lot of fun)

For SC2 there could perhaps be different stats for each country. Perhaps the Russian units would have a lower imbedded attack strength to reflect worse equipment. And German units would have a higher number of units present (perhaps LVL 0 German unit could have a 12 strength in a corps)to reflect that divisions contained more men. Then their strength would be 12 to 17, depending on future tech advances.

With the manpower issue another system could be added - but here's an idea that would not have to introduce any new stats to track: Have city MPPs reduced by army and corp production. Perhaps German cities would collectively have to reduce MPPs by 5 per army and 3 per corps that is created. Perhaps some fraction of this for manpower reinforcements. Perhaps Russia would have no penalty at all or a severely limited one (maybe cost 1 MPP from a city's production).

For example if German built 3 armies in a turn, 15 points would have to be deducted from cities. How to pick? Reduce from the cities the unit is built at. This would limit the Germans to 2 armies from a 10 city in one turn, and then it would have to take 5 turns (and 5 enemy turns) to build back up. In Russia, this would mean that a German army built somewhere in a 5 city would use all the resources.

This has an unintended effect on supply though, draining cities at the fronts of their effective ability to supply units. Perhaps the player could be allowed to "move" supply. So the German could "move" some MPPs from Berlin to another city being drained. There could be a limit on how much moving resources is allowed. In effect, the drain in manpower could be reflected by decreased future MPPs if too many units are quickly created.

There are probably better manpower solutions, but I'm a bit more of a gamer than a simulator. So I prefer less complex solutions. But I would be in favour of nations having each unit with different stats right at the outset.