Konstantin V. Kotelnikov Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 Originally posted by Shaka of Carthage: A Russian infantry division per to&e is only 9500 men. A German infantry division per to&e is 17,000 men. The Russian Tank "Corp", which never had more than 12,000 men, is more equivalent to a western armored division (10,000 to 15,000). These numbers are incorrect. Page 152 Stumbling Colossus by Glantz has a side by side comparison of these units full stength on the eve of Barbarossa. Soviet Rifle Division 14,483 men 10,420 rifles and carbines 166 Heavy MG 392 Light MG 33 Anti Aircraft MG 1204 Sub Machine Guns 0 Anti Tank Rifles 144 Guns 66 Mortars 558 Vehicles 3039 Horses 16 Light Tanks 13 Armoured Cars 99 Tractors German Infantry Division 16,859 Men 11,500 Rifles and Carbines 142 Heavy Machine Guns 434 Light Machine Guns 0 Anti Aircraft MG 787 Sub Machine Guns 81 Anti-Tank Rifles 161 Guns 54 Mortars 902 Vehicles 6358 Horses 0 Light Tanks 16 Armoured Cras 62 Tractors Page 154 compares Tank Divisions Red Army 10940 Men 375 Tanks 95 Armoured Cars 454 Motorcycles 40 Guns 18 Mortars 84 Tractors 1568 Vehicles German Army 16000 men 135-209 Tanks 25 Armoured Cars 1289 Motorcycles 72 Guns 30 Mortars 200 Tractors 1568 Vehicles This excellent book also contains side by side comparisons of all sorts of other units. The one thing to keep in mind was that while most Red Army divisions in the western districts had the full compliment on manpower, they were lacking in other areas of equipment. For example none of it's infantry divisions had it's compliment of tanks. These were all concentrated in tank divisions and motorized corps. So on and so forth. I lent my copy of the Red Army handbook to a friend to read, otherwise I could provide a year by year break down of Red Army divisional strength. The soviet union realized that war with Nazi Germany was inevitable. The only suprise was that Hitler started it in June 1941 when the soviets were expecting it in 1942. The germans caught the soviets "creeping up to war". I agree that the game fails to represent the attritional factor that led to Germany's downfall. A good source for totals is in the forward of "The Eastern Front". And I quote; In the course of "The Great Patriotic War 1941-1945", the Soviet Union mobilzed 29,574,900 men. Wartime turnover in manpower amounted to 21,700,000. During 1,418 days of barbarized warfare, bereft of any legal or moral constraints, the Red Army's battlefield losses were more than half those 21 million, 11,440,100 men put permanently out of action (killed). Other numbers listed are 16,350,000 civilians shot, starved, neglected or murdered in concentration camps. 2 Million deported for slave labour in the Reich. Each minute of this war cost 9-10 russian lives, each hour 587, each day 14,000. The red army finally destroyed, disabled or captured 607 Axis divisions. In doing so the Red Army lost 96,500 tanks, 106,400 aircraft and 317,000 guns. It also states in that the Anglo-American armies in North Africa, Italy and Western Europe destroyed 176 Axis Divisions. Numbers that certainly boggle the mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 Konstantin Those numbers you've put up have certainly boggled my mind! Incredible. I've always wondered why the Soviets held Axis POWs till the fifties and early sixties, many of them dying along the way. Now I know the answer, with 21,000,000 admitted dead or incapacitated and over 16,000,000 dead civilians with 2,000,000 more probably vanished, an incredible total of over 39,000,000 people lost to their economy, they kept the prisoners because they needed them as a work force! I'd heard that explanation for years and thought it was nonsense, but apparently it actually was the reason. Always thought it was more like half that figure for both soldiers and civilians, which would still have been incredible, but the figures you post make sense. Their lose of life was about equal to mid-fifties estimates for a nuclear war! Glad you shared those figures. Great stuff. [ February 14, 2003, 12:09 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaka of Carthage Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 KVK The Russian inf div you quoted is at the start of Barbarossa. That to&e was never attained again, due to the massive intial losses they suffered. The offical to&e reduced the size of the infantry bn's and stripped men from the combat support units. All the other numbers I gave agree to what you have stated, except for the German Panzer div, which is about 1,000 men off. I'm sure you'll agree that if you compare five different sources, you will get five different numbers on what the units looked like. None of the units in the field kept to the standard to&e's, but the above does illustrate that the Russian Inf div is much smaller than the German one. Your manpower numbers for the Russians are interesting. They show almost a 3:1 advantage to the Germans. Same with your battlefield losses, they show a much higher number of Russian losses that I show. Either way, relative to the Germans, the Russians had superior manpower resources. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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