Siberian Transfer Trigger

[Edwin P.]

In Sc the Siberian transfer is triggered by the approach of Axis units to specific cities and the relative balance for forces.

It would be interesting if this trigger was also affected by the War in the Pacific.

For example, if the US sent Naval and/or land units west to the Pacific via a transit hex shouldn't the Siberia be triggered earlier, as the Japanese forces facing Russia would be diverted to fight the Americans.

Or Perhaps when the US enters the war the US could receive an option to adopt a Japan first strategy, in which case the US would start with fewer units but the Russian Siberian transfer would be triggered sooner.

[ March 04, 2004, 10:52 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Shaka of Carthage]

You've hit upon the key problem that people have with the Siberian transfer... the fact that the Axis control when/if it occurs.

Any of the possible solutions that you and others have presented would be appropriate, as long as it was outside of Axis control.

The Japanese and Russians had been involved in border skirmishes and actual battles over quite a few years. There were a series of battles during '39 between them that the Japanese badly lost. As a result of those battles, the Japanese decided to leave Russia alone and look elsewhere to expand. Of course, the Russians didn't realize that and felt the need to keep a large number of units there in case the Japanese caused problems.

So basically, from the Russian perspective, you have the Siberian forces to counter any possible Japanese threat, that you would not pull unless you were in dire circumstances.

So while we don't want the conditions to be something the Axis control, we also don't want the Russians to pull those troops without there being the possibbility of bad consequences.

Something as simple as a percentage chance of losing Russian MPPs would work (to reflect the Japanese taking advantage of the weaken defenses and making territorial gains), if the Russians transferred the Siberians. You could also work up some variable conditions that affected the US, UK along with the Russians.

[Edwin P.]

So basically, from the Russian perspective, you have the Siberian forces to counter any possible Japanese threat, that you would not pull unless you were in dire circumstances.

So while we don't want the conditions to be something the Axis control, we also don't want the Russians to pull those troops without there being the possibbility of bad consequences.

Correct, now what could the bad consequences be?

If the USSR pulls out too early, Japan advances in Russia, and this frees Japanese resources for duty elsewhere - perhaps it Allows the Japanese to push south towards Australia and India, thus elimininating any UK Merchant Shipping from this Region, or Perhaps it causes US Production to be reduced as more American forces are deployed to the Pacific.

[Shaka of Carthage]

The consequences are what I alluded to when I stated that it could be simple or complex.

The obvious one being that Japan attacks Russia... which could result in Japan making gains, hence Russian MPP production is reduced (cause its needed to fight the Japanese). It could also be that the Japanese, even after attacking, make little or no gains, hence no effect on the Russian MPPs.

You could also assume that the Japanese used the forces in other theaters, like China. This assumption would imply that the UK and US needed to send more resources against the Japanese. A simple reduction in the UK and US production could accomodate that. If we assume that SC2 does something about unit limits, in addition to the MPP reduction, there would be a reduction in the number of units avaialbe for Europe.

You could even go so far as having the Japanese advances cause units already in the European theater to have to be transferred to the Pacific... hence the US, UK and Russia would "lose" a randomly determined number of units. That would make the Allies think twice about the Siberians being used against the Germans.

Thats about all I would do. Anything beyond that gets too far into the specifics of what would happen and makes the model very fragile in its results.

[Edwin P.]

You could even go so far as having the Japanese advances cause units already in the European theater to have to be transferred to the Pacific... hence the US, UK and Russia would "lose" a randomly determined number of units. That would make the Allies think twice about the Siberians being used against the Germans.

Now that's interesting and very simple.

[pzgndr]

You've hit upon the key problem that people have with the Siberian transfer... the fact that the Axis control when/if it occurs.

There's also the game setting that turns this option on or off, so players already know how to tailor their strategy. A random setting would provide an unknown.

If Japan attacked USSR and got into any sort of prolonged struggle, obviously that would keep the Siberians deployed to the east and perhaps have some additional effect on Soviet production. But it would also mean less Japanese commitment against the USA, all things being equal, and that would possibly free up US resources to fight in Europe.

So a random trigger that perhaps withholds the Siberian transfer but then gives the US some additional units (a couple of armies, a BB, a CV, etc.) could be considered.

That still doesn't address the case of actual Siberian transfer trigger in Russia. The current factors could be adjusted to trigger earlier with some reduced chance or whatever. Also, whether the Soviet player gets to choose transfer could be considered, but this should come with the risk that a possible Japanese attack would have some serious consequences. Like cutting USSR production or forcing withdrawal of units, and that could be crippling depending on if and when it occurs.

Bottom line is we need a little more variation and randomness in SC2 regarding the Siberian transfer event, at both the theater level and the global strategic level.