Sea Lion and Spain's Reaction

[Edwin P.]

With a successful Sea Lion Spain will often join the Axis.

In light of Spain's experience during WWII it would be most interesting if "sometimes" instead of joining the Axis the Spanish government merely annexed Gibraltar if the English surrender to the Axis, in my opinion a realistic alternative course of action to joining the Axis for the nationalist government of General Franco.

[JerseyJohn]

Yes, it would be.

I'd add a bonus in German and Italian MPPs representing increased trade with South America through Spain and Portugal.

A bonus the Axis loses if it invades either country, and never receives at all if it invaded them earlier.

As always, a fine idea Edwin.

[Edwin P.]

A great idea Jersey. I never thought about the increased trade flowing through Spain and Portugal from South America.

I especially like the concept of this trade bonus stopping if the Axis attack either of these two countries.

[Edwin P.]

Along the same lines, I would also like to see the Axis, if they have conquered Vichy France, have the option to offer French Algeria to the Spainish in exchange for allowing supplies to flow through a Spanish Neutral Spain to Gibraltar to Italian Libya. Naturally, the chance for a neutral Franco Spain to accept or reject this offer depends upon what the Axis offer in exchange.

For example:

Offer 125 MPP for equipping 1 Spanish Corps - 10% accept

Offer 325 MPP for equipping 1 SpanishArmor - 50% accept

Offer 400 MPP for purchasing 1 Spanish Air Fleet - 75% Acceptance

IF Franco accepts the Italian cities can trace a supply line thru Spanish territory and Spanish territory expands to include French Algeria.

Naturally, if the Axis begin to lose the war, Spanish forces may decide take advantage of the situation to annex Italian Libya while remaining officially Neutral - ie Spanish forces many only move in Iberia (Spain and Portugal), Morroco, Algeria, and Libya. Spanish corps will automatically move from Algeria to occupy cities abandoned by Italy in Libya. (Naturally this only occurs if Spain controls Gibraltar and French Algeria.)

Also,

If the Allies Liberate Paris then a pro Axis Spanish government may decide to withdraw from the Axis and return to Neutrality if Allied forces in Spain agree to withdraw. All Spanish units return to Spain. A most logical reaction to Allied Success in France.

Thus Franco offers to withdraw from Axis

Allied play has option to accept or reject this offer. If they accept then Spain returns to Neutrality, Spanish forces outside of Spain automatically operate back to Spain, Allied forces in Spain move to nearest allied territory.

[ February 08, 2004, 01:24 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[JerseyJohn]

Edwin,

Glad you like the idea, and you've got an interest one added to it.

From Hubert's past designs and upgrades I'd have to say he'll choose the least complicated route, but they're all good ideas all the same.

I don't think the Allies would offer French colonies to Spain because they were planning to restore France in the post war to it's World Power status and never considered Vichy to be a vallid government.

But I'm sure they'd have found some other incentive for Franco, it's only a matter of figuring out what it would have been.

[ February 08, 2004, 01:44 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[JerseyJohn]

Hubert eagerly considers the latest ideas and calmly calculates the requisite code alterations.

[ February 08, 2004, 01:55 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Edwin P.]

[ February 08, 2004, 12:59 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Edwin P.]

I agree, the least complicated route is often the best and offers the highest ROI.

That said I think that the following simple(?) idea in human vs AI games might be worth considering;

1. Turkey Annexes Iraq and French Syria(Intermediate 5%, Expert AI 20%) - this limits the ability of the human Axis player to conquer Iraq and threaten Russia from the South and the human Allied player to seize the Iraqi Oil fields and gain a MPP bonus.

The issue here is how to time this effect. I would say a check when France surrenders and another check if England falls to a Sea Lion. If the check is passed there would be a 5% per turn that this effect takes place. This makes the timing of the the effect unpredictable.

2. If no Allied or Axis forces are in Egypt there is a 1% per turn that Egypt revolts and declares its independence. It becomes a neutral country with 1 corps in Cairo and offers no plunder bonus to its conquerer.

3. If no Allied or Axis forces are in Algeria, their is a 1% that the Algerian countryside erupts in open revolt. The territory of Algeria becomes a neutral countrty with 1 corps in its only city and offers no plunder to its conquerer.

4. In an Axis Human vs Allied AI game, perhaps their should be a chance (5% Expert Level AI) that Norway and Sweden (and the Baltic States? and Finland?) enter into a mutual defense pact after Poland surrenders to the Axis. Thus declaring war on one is treated as a declaration of war against all. Naturally, if the Baltic states joins the defense pact then the AI controlled USSR would not attack the Baltic states.

5. In an Allied Human vs Axis AI Game at Expert level give the Axis a 5% to receive 2 extra sub fleets at Tech level 11 in the Atlantic, reflecting a decision to preposition forces in the Atlantic before attacking Poland.

6. In Human Allied vs Axis AI games at Expert AI when France surrenders 5% that each French naval fleet joins the Axis navy.

7. In Human Allied vs Axis AI games at Expert Level give Vichy France a 5% to join the Axis. This gives the Axis AI a small production bonus and two naval fleets.

So at Expert Axis AI After France surrenders perform a check for Vichy France joining the Axis. If yes (a 5% chance), then there is a 5% per turn that this event occurs, unless the Allies have liberated Paris or Italy has surrendered.

8. In Axis Human vs Allied AI At Expert Level if the UK surrenders the US Annexes Canada, Malta, Gibraltar and Egypt, if the UK is liberated then these territories rejoin the UK.

9. In Axis Human vs Allied AI at Expert level if the UK Surrenders then each UK Naval Unit and overseas UK Combat Unit has a 50% to join the US as Free Brits.

10. In Axis Human vs Allied AI at Expert level there is a 5% that the UK gives Egypt to the US believing that only this action will deter an Axis conquest of the Middle East.

Human Axis vs Allied AI - Expert Level Allied AI Bonuses

In any one game the AI may receive none or several of these bonuses, thus making for a most interesting game with lots of surprises for the Human Axis player.

a. 5% UK gives Egypt to the US

b. If UK surrenders then each UK naval unit and oversea combat unit has a 50% to become Free Brit Unit

c. If UK surrenders then Egypt, Gibraltar and Canada join the US.

d. 20% Turkey Annexes Syria and Iraq.

e. 5% Norway and Sweden sign Mutual defense pact (5% Baltic States join pact, 5% Finland joins pact). Russian AI does not attack neutral Baltic States.

f. 5% UK suppresses military coup in Iraq, Iraq joins Allies and UK gains plunder.

g. 5% US receives 2 cruisers, 1 sub, and 1 carrier transferred from the Pacific Fleet.

h. 5% US receives 1,2 or 3 Bomber Units in the US to protect sea routes.

i. 5% Turkey joins Allies if Axis attacks Spain.

j. 5% Turkey joins Allies if France is Liberated.

k. 5% UK receives bonus Australian Corps in Egypt.

L. 5% UK receives bonus South African Army Division in Egypt.

M. 5% Turkey joins Allies If No Axis units in Bulgaria and Romania after Germany DOW Russia.

N. 25% If Russia surrenders then US gains 3 Carriers, 3 Cruisers, 3 Subs, and 3 Battleships from the Pacific Fleet. US also gains 1 Tech chit in Longrange, Bombers, Subs, and Jets. (1 in 4 games)

O. 20% US AI gains 1 bonus Tech Chit in AntiTank, Longrange, Anti-Air and Industrial Production.

P. 20% UK AI gains 1 bonus Tech Chit in Anti-Air and Industrial Production.

Q. 50% USSR receives bonus Air Fleet from the US via northern port of Murmansk if Allies control Norway.

P. 1% per turn after Russian surrender for a Massive Partisan Uprising - 10-15 Militia Units appear in Russia supported by 1-2 HQ Units, 1-3 Army Units and 1-5 Corps.

[ February 08, 2004, 06:31 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Edwin P.]

Allied Human Vs Axis AI - Expert Level AI Bonuses

Wish list of bonuses for the Axis AI at Expert Level

1. Vichy France Joins Axis - 1% with each country conquered/joining the Axis. Example: Denmark Surrenders = 1% Vichy France Joins Axis, Hungary joinss Axis = another 1% check for Vichy to Join the Axis.

2. 1% per turn if the Allies leave Cairo Ungarrisonned then the Egyptians revolt and an Egyptian Partisan unit appears in Cairo.

3. 10% if the Allies DOW Iraq then Turkey Annexes Iraq before the Allies can Invade. Allies must now decide whether to DOW Turkey.

4. 2% whenever no Allied units(1% when 1 allied unit, 0% when 2 allied units) are in the Caucaus mountain region Rusisa south of Rostov then Turkey joins the Axis in hopes of Seizing Southern Russia.

5. 10% Germany gains (1-3) Rocket Units in 1942. The result of a secret production program.

6. 10% Iraq joins Axis if Vichy France Joins Axis (see 1 above) .

7. 5% Full German War Mobilization reduces MPP cost of German, and only German, units by 25%. This check is made at the start of 1941 and stacks with any reductions from advancements in Industrial Tech.

8. 50% Units commanded by HQ Rommel attack at 100% Readiness and have their spotting range increased by 2 hexes.

9. 50% Units commanded by HQ Kesselring defend at 100% Readiness and have their spotting range increased by 2 hexes.

10. 10% If Warsaw or Paris falls to the Allies then Germany gains (1 to 6) Corps around Berlin as it drafts all able bodied men into the army.

11. 50% per year that Germany gains a bonus tech chit in Air Defense, Anti-Tank, Armor, or Jets.

[ February 10, 2004, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[JerseyJohn]

Edwin

Those are all very fine ideas -- I can't even begin to comment on them individually as so many are tied in to each other. It would be interesting to hear Hubert's response and I hope he gives one other than a wink.

What strikes me is you have a very unique take on WWII in Europe and you're a computer person. The sort of If this Then that => situations you come up with would be perfect for a game concept I had when personal computers first became popular in the early 80s.

My idea was to have a map of Europe divided into sections such as those in, say Diplomacy except much smaller. Instead of units, each side would allocate amounts of force to each of these sectors as well as governors and various commanders -- there would have been a list of historical and fictitious names with differing capabilities. Similar allocations would be made for entire countries regarding economics and diplomacy and research.

Germany, in 1941, for example would need to allocate how much force to hold the west with and how much to use in the east against the USSR, and then either distribute it manually or assign the computer to do so in given regions or routine areas, such as economic tasks.

The idea was to allow the player to spend more time making broad decisions while spending no time at all moving pieces around. Kursk, for example, would probably be represented as a highly fortified territory with a major city being attacked from above by Kluge's Army Group Center and below by Mannstein's Army Group South. Those commander's offensive vs enemies defensive capabilities would be part of the overall equation, along with terrain and forces involved, degree of fortification and supply, etc., that would determine the outcome of the fighting.

The Human's role would end with either giving the order to attack or not to attack or setting a new plan into action to be executed by the computer entity military commanders.

One form of human decision, for example, would be production: deciding what part of the pie went to each branch. From there each branch would have it's own pie considering things such as how much to put into research, how much to put into maintaining absolescent weapons systems and how much to put into newer ones, requiring a refitting of front line units. An Air Force would need to determine what resources would go into bombers or fighters or tactical aircraft. Also required would be the decision to rush new aircraft into the line, or continue with the more perfected but older models.

The Luftwaffe faced this choice late in the war, when it was sending Hitler Youth pilots up in well designed jet aircraft being held together by substandard glue!

This was the German decision during the Spring of 1943, whether to continue producing Pz III & IVs, or rush production of Pz Vs & VIs for the upcoming Kursk Offensive. For two months or so they did neither; the assembly lines were changed over, the old models could not be produced and the new models had late changes, so production was slowed to a trickle exactly when it was most needed!

The thing with this game is the program resources that would otherwise be consumed in unit issues, things like movement and combat, etc, would go instead in variable event tables, expanded diplomacy, inteligence, espionage etc & etc.. Not having to worry about direct troop manaagement, the human player would be able to spend his time on the broader aspects of conducting a war.

Cutting to the chase, with your great imagination and knack for combining the hypothetical with the practical I'm sure you've got plenty of game concepts of your own, but if you like this one and ever care to design a game around it I'd consider it an honor. I think it would make a good counterpart to the more traditional hex and unit approach and would be

very conducive to your ideas.

After reading and responding to so many of your posts, I've reached the conclussion that no one would be able to design your game vision, except yourself. And I'm sure there are many, many people who'd like to see the realized product.

The same people who'd buy SC would also buy this other concept, the two different approaches would go well together. One would appeal to those who enjoy being a general/admiral while the other would appeal to those who want to be the administrative head of a country.

A free, autographed, copy of the finished product would be great!

[ February 10, 2004, 01:59 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Edwin P.]

JerseyJohn,

Thanks for your comments about my Expert AI Bonuses. I think its a "simple" way to make the game less predicatable and more interesting at the Expert Level AI setting (by including chances for AI favorable actions and events that do not occur at lower level AI settings). In fact, you could add a genius level where the chance for each event increases by 50% over Expert Level (Ie 10% changes to 15%).

One advantage of this bonus system for the Expert Level AI is that programming the events themselves is easier than working on an improved artificial intelligence.

5. 10% Germany gains (2-4) Rocket Units in 1942. The result of a secret production program. (1 in 10 Games vs Axis Expert AI)

6. 50% Germany gets 2 bonus tech levels in Rockets if Event #5 (above)was selected.(1 in 20 games)

7. 5% Turkey Joins Axis after France and Denmark Surrender (1 in 20 games)

8. 3% Baltic States join Axis after Poland Surrenders. Russia does not annex Baltic states.(1 in 33 games)

9. 5% per turn that Axis AI spots all UK Naval Units due to German Spy in UK Naval Command Staff.(1 in 20 turns vs Axis Expert AI - about 1/year)

10. 5% Per Game that Germany Receives 1 Bonus Sub Unit every 5th turn (about 5 a year :eek: ),if German production is above 300MPP, in Southwestern French Port. (1 in 20 games).

11. 1% if No allied units in Egypt then Japanese troops Seize Egypt. Egypt becomes Japanese Controlled and gains Japanese Army in Cairo, Germany & Italy gain Merchant Route via Suez that contributes 20MPP to each country per turn.

12. 50% Japan Annexes Neutral Iraq if Event #11(see above) was selected. Value of Merchant Route to Axis powers increases to 40MPP per Turn while Japan control Iraqi Oil Hexes.

This system also facilitates the addition of new Expert Level AI bonuses in subsequent software updates.

-----------------------------------------------

Great game idea and relatively simple , as compared to SC. I just may take you up on that offer. Let me think about it some more and send you a really detailed response later this week.

[ February 10, 2004, 05:58 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[JerseyJohn]

Excellent, Glad You Like the idea!

Would really love to see the result.

I'm sure the usual suspects, myself included, would be pleased to assist in any way we could.

"[...]Let me think about it some more and send you a really detailed response later this week."

JohnofJersey@AOL.com

[ February 10, 2004, 09:30 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]