JerseyJohn Posted May 6, 2003 Share Posted May 6, 2003 This Topic is a spin-off of santabear's excellent idea except for military histories prior to World War Two. We ask that authors who wrote military history or threory books prior to 1939, such as Heinz Guderian, but who would be considered WW II sources, be placed in santabear's thread. In this one we're looking for the Golden Oldies. In accordance with santabear's original idea, I think we should limit recommendations to two choices per posting. As a courtessy I'd wait a few postings before adding two more suggestions, even if they were mentioned earlier as long as something new is added about them. That way we'll get a varied list and different views of the same works. I'm particularly eager to see SeaWolf's listings as he's been the most enthusiastic on the idea. -- Please Remember, Two Books per Posting, then come back after another person's posting if you wish to list more, or add something about an earlier recommendation -- [ May 06, 2003, 09:58 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted May 6, 2003 Author Share Posted May 6, 2003 Okay JJ, my first choice is The Influence of Sea Power Upon History by the American Naval Officer Alfred Thayer Mahan . Though recognized in the United States, his work was much more appreciated in Great Britain and Germany. It was a key factor in Kaiser Wilhelm II's decision to build a large ocean going navy to compet with Britain for global colonial possessions. Teddy and Franklin Roosevelt also studied the work in depth and applied it's principles to the United State's Two Ocean Navy linked by the Panama Canal. My second choice, JJ, is the oldest known military treatise, Sun Tsu's, The Art of War. Those who are already familiar with the work will understand why I value it so highly, those who aren't familiar with it are missing one of the most important conflict books ever written. This ancient Chinese masterpiece goes back so far that there's disagreement as to whether there actually was a person by that name, some scholars believe it's a collection of writings by different authors. The book stresses the importance of minimizing casualties throught the use of maneuvre, preventive attacks using terrain to it's fullest advantage and making use of intelligence obtained from reconnaisance and spies. There are several translations with slightly varied texts. The English version I like is translated by Ralph D. Sawyer. The same translater has also put out what might be considered a companion volume, Unorthodox Strategies: 100 Lessons in the Art of War. Despite having been attributed to Liu Po-wen there is in reality no known author. Coming from the Eleventh Century A. D. this book is much more recent than Sun Tsu's original work. So universal are Sun Tsu's thoughts that this work has also been studied as an approach to the business world! BTW, Jersey, you have some set of cajonies asking people to limit their choices to two per posting. Anyway I sneaked a third book in just to show that I'm not putting up with your arbitrary rules. [ May 06, 2003, 10:15 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeaWolf_48 Posted May 6, 2003 Share Posted May 6, 2003 Okay JJ here it is, you will probibly be disappointed, but my litmus test is how many times I have read or used the book in my life, in other words how many times have I gone back to the work. The number one book hands down is Thucydides written in 401 B.C. by Thucydides. This book opened my eyes and started my love of history. I have read the book twice, and it's thick. It picks up history right before the Peloponnesian Wars from about 431 BC to 404 BC. I have been a big Antiquity history buff ever since. But no one writting history during that era holds a candle compared to him, Julius Caesar and many other Roman writers are so inaccurate and exaggerate so much it's laughable, but Thucydides is very accurate. This is the classic war between the greatest sea power and the greatest land power city-states of Hellas (Greece). Has a tragic ending, like a novel. Athens vs. Sparta and her allies, the Ionians against the Doric greeks, the Doric's being the newcomers in Hellas. Great speeches by Pericles, good stuff!!! Coming to your theaters soon... The second book of history written before electricity that has impressed me is The Killer Angels by Michael Shaara. After you read his historic novel about the 20th Maine at little Round top, or really the whole story of Gettysburg you will have to travel to Gettysburg and see the classic battlefield, I had too. These two works are about the classic struggle of mankind, who's way of life is right, idealogical wars. Not just the aggressor taking (Nazi thugs with the heretical teaching of Ayianism which spond from Darwinism (which if believed says that eventually we will all become gods, the same old lie that Satan told Eve, "if you eat it, you will become like god")), but people fighting for there belief system, Athens the first democracy against Sparta the Despot Kingdom, and the South the real Republic against the Federal Giant ever wanting to grow more controlling and powerful, even listenning to the phone and looking at your bank account, trying to take your guns (out of my cold dead hand). JJ haven't read The Sea Power book but will make an effort to get it, didn't care for Sun Tsu that much, too preachy and "I'm so smart" for me, although I don't disagree with what he/they wrote about strategies of war. Funny thing is that I don't think that the Chinese ever read his works or understood it because they sure lost a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted May 6, 2003 Author Share Posted May 6, 2003 SeaWolf Thucydides and his merry band wandering through Asia Minor is one of the greatest books of any age. It avoids all the Roman books faults because it's author wasn't vying for political office. What I like about this book is various tribes and people are mentioned who seem to have vanished from recorded history. Glad you listed it. Ceasar was really writing a propaganda campaign for Julius Ceasar. He was competing not only with Pompey the Great but also with Crassus for control of the Roman world. What I find interesting about his account of Gual is it becomes clear that up till that time he was more of a gifted amateur than a true general. He wanders into traps and is saved only by the supperior discipline and fighting quality of his troops. His siege of Vercingeterix, in which he is besieged himself by overwhelming forces, is a testament to this; had his troops not been the best in the world they could never have held out. I see the Sun Tsu book in the same light as the Bible, it goes goes back so far and has been transcribed so many times throughout the ages that the tone has no relevance to our modern reading preferences. It probably didn't start out preachy but was altered by later Confucians. The Michael Sheera book is a great historical novel precisely because it goes beyond the battlefield and asks the sort of questions you discuss. I met his son Jeff at Gettysburg a few years ago where he was autographing the three book set (his prequel and sequel with the Killer Angels). I asked him what rank the Irish NCO held. He started laughing and said nobody'd ever asked him that before! Then he said, "Come to think of it, my Dad mentions something somewhere about a wild night where he did a little too much drinking." In as much as (in the book) the guy practically ran the regiment for Joshua Chamberlain I'd think he'd restore him to his official first sergeant position, but he obviously had some sort of position. Joshua Chamberlain is an interesting, bigger than life figure in his own right. My turn to recommend two more. Going back to ancient times, I'd recommend The Jewish Wars by Josephus. I find that he's one of history's more interesting characters. A religious zealot who goes over to the enemy and attempts to convince his former comrades in arms that their struggle is hopeless. Of course he received their contempt. Interestingly, much of what he says is relevant to the Modern Middle East. Also recommended is Plutarch's Parrelel Lives of the Noble Greeks and Romans. One of those books that has been condensed and broken up and churned out in any number of forms. I'd get the complete original lives, which is a huge book. It is structured as the life of a Greek set against a Roman counterpart followed by an essay comparing the two. To me it's one of the joys of historical reading. Many of the biographies are of figures who have become reduced in stature over the ages, which is why it has become so horribly edited and chopped up. Most publishing houses only want to print the names most readers would be familiar with. In many cases the comparative essays are done away with entirely. Odd, as the original title was Parrellel Lives in the context of comparative lives. Of course, having been a Greek living in Ancient Rome -- I believe second century A. D., Plutarch's views are greatly different from our own. For example, he says Alexander the Great's clothing became cleansed with his wearing of them. Okay, I think not! But the bio of Alexander is well worth reading. [ May 06, 2003, 04:23 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeaWolf_48 Posted May 6, 2003 Share Posted May 6, 2003 Okay this may turn out too be our forum, but who cares. Had a copy of Josephus years ago, but only used it for reference, and not as a enjoyable history reading book. It was Okay at best, but that's just my dull mind. I have some of the works of Plutarch, the chopped up versions, I enjoyed his greek mind looking at Rome. Even Herodotus was just marginal reading for me, even though very important and considered the father of history (history his an english word for "his story" speaking of our Lord Jesus). You have a better gift for history than I if you can suffer thru the dry stuff. Come to think of it my favorite history book is the Bible . It is historic, truthful, shocking, exposing, and compassionate. The Old Testement stories of David are great stories, with lots of military tactics. Joshua, Daniel, Genesis by Moses, and the Book of Acts, fantastic 1st century history, are all great stories of man and his journey here on earth. Of coarse this is my humble view as a Pre-tribulation, Pre-millenial, Five Point Calvinist. The only other books that I like are the ones that I'm reading right now, my favorties are usually the ones that I'm reading at whatever time I'm asked. e.g. when I was reading the book about the sinking of the Bismark, it was the best book, later when reading about Patton, that was my favorite, and so on and so forth. But I do have an opinion on everything, as we all have, and there are some books that I don't like. Sorry to say that book "War in Russia" was so full of commie garbage about the great Soviet army killing millions of germans, and actually losing less men! I threw the book in the garbage, of coarse I bought it used. Probibly my favorite writtings are short stories by military men who are right at the battles. WW2 Magizine and Civil War Magizines spend a lot of time next to the John (hardy har har). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted May 7, 2003 Author Share Posted May 7, 2003 SeaWolf This is indeed our Thread -- which is just as well, maybe we ought to consider it our Yacht Club and instead of allowing others to post make a rule that they first need to submit an application for membership. I doubt I have a gift for history, I've just read a lot of it and have a good memory, as I'm sure you've also got. Your comments on favorite book remind of a remark someone made when asked which of the Brahms symphonies he liked best. His reply, "The one I've heard most recently." Most of history is dry. The only thing I can say I do in reading history that a lot of people probably don't do, is I take it in as data. I'll read novels for enjoyment and if the author isn't a great writer I put it aside and never pick it up again. I don't expect history books to be great reading, all I want is good information and perhaps a different slant on things. Probably the reason I like Josephus is because he's writing about the Romans at war from the view point of the people they're defeating. If such a work were available about the Gallic Wars I'm sure I'd like that as well; you'll notice Ceasar can barely justify half his actions even by Roman standards -- he just blatantly sets out to conquer the neighboring country of Gaul and makes no bones about it. He says things like he wanted to stop the Helvetii from trespassing across Roman territory but in reality those same people might have settled peacefully on vacant Roman lands if given the opportunity, but he never asks them. And his methods are brutal, severed limbs and mass executions, something movie goers don't get a sense of when they see the Hollywood version. The john is a fine place to catch up on reading -- which is why smart mystery novelists either write short chapters or divide them into short sections with the old * * * mechanism. Which just goes to show where the human brain is at it's most receptive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted May 7, 2003 Author Share Posted May 7, 2003 SeaWolf and JerseyJohn's Pre-Modern Historical Era Resource Yacht Club. Membership Applications Now Being Accepted. Please see Receptionist. [ May 06, 2003, 06:32 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeaWolf_48 Posted May 7, 2003 Share Posted May 7, 2003 Ha Ha Ha, very good. Don't forget Sunday is Mother's day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted May 7, 2003 Author Share Posted May 7, 2003 Thanks for the reminder -- I'd forgotten and my mother-in-law lives with us so I'm especially glad you mentioned it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaka of Carthage Posted May 7, 2003 Share Posted May 7, 2003 'Cuse me for crashing this club... just consider it a amphib assault. #1 book. When I was a wee little lad, there was a book I read, that I can't remember the name or the author. Anyway it basically said that the "western" world emphasized shock combat (spear/sword and shield) while the "eastern" world emphasized missile (bow) combat. Got me to thinking, and that led me to my #2 choice. Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire Edward Gibbons It's a much easier read if you keep in mind Gibbon's background and the era he was in. Ok now, where's the bar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted May 7, 2003 Author Share Posted May 7, 2003 A third member! Hmmmm, now we need to put in a bar -- usually SeaWolf and myself bring ours in flasks. Well, guess that's the price an organization pays for suddenly increasing it's membership by 33.3333%! That first book sounds interesting, Crassus had to learn that lesson the hard way! Gibbon's book is a terrific choice. Before his work came along the Roman Empire was largely forgotten except for it's passages in the New Testament. Good point about taking it in the context of it's era; eighteenth century readers wanted their money's worth in quantity even at the expense of quality; though in Edward Gibbon they received both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaka of Carthage Posted May 7, 2003 Share Posted May 7, 2003 You bring yours in a flask? What lightweights! My CAT can drink more than a flask carries. The book was real interesting. I think I even "borrowed" it permanently from the library it had such an effect on me. I can even visualize the cover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted May 7, 2003 Author Share Posted May 7, 2003 "What lightweights! My CAT can drink more than a flask carries." -- Shaka Your cat must be a sabretooth; our flasks are mounted on oversized carts. We realized when the place was in it's design stage that a bar would be inadequate for our needs, so we opted for inebrial mobility. The Flasks Parked in Parrellel [ May 07, 2003, 02:43 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts