M Hofbauer Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 M. Dorosh, I was wondering since you are a Canadian and seem to be rather knowledgeable re. ww2 ranks, and I still have some open questions re. the british ww2 rank system, would you object if I would contact you via email so I could ask you questions on the British-Canadian ranks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted February 13, 2001 Author Share Posted February 13, 2001 Originally posted by M Hofbauer: M. Dorosh, I was wondering since you are a Canadian and seem to be rather knowledgeable re. ww2 ranks, and I still have some open questions re. the british ww2 rank system, would you object if I would contact you via email so I could ask you questions on the British-Canadian ranks? i was going to suggest we move this conversation off forum. Good idea. There is a full table of Canadian ranks and appointments at one of my websites - see http://members.home.net/canuckmain/ and look under Uniforms, then NCO rank insignia. If you have any further questions, (or if anyone else does) feel free by all means to email me, and I'll try to help as best I can. [This message has been edited by Michael Dorosh (edited 02-12-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMC Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 Hofbauer summons me so here I am. I don't have my references at hand so it will have to wait for me to get home before I can offer anything concrete about the Stabscharfuehrer. The Herr thing requires a bit of research as well but right off I can offer at least one anecdote I can remember that supports the M. Dorosh theory. I want to check more because this may have been a temporary thing or one that was sporadic. Gruppenfuehrer Hausser comes to inspect training. He finds some soldiers in position behind some bushes. He asks one "what is your job, soldier?" The soldier replies "Schuetze #2, Gruppenfuehrer!" Hausser asks the next one the same question. "Schuetze #1, Gruppenfuehrer!" Hausser move a little further and asks another soldier what his job is. The Soldier replies, "Gruppenfuehrer, Gruppenfuehrer!" And Hausser chuckles and says "I guess that makes us colleagues." So as told by one vet, the Herr was dropped in SS usage. I hadn't thought about it before. I have more of that kind of stuff to check. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted February 13, 2001 Author Share Posted February 13, 2001 Funny! Looking forward to hearing from you again; thanks for the anecdote! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Hofbauer Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 Michael Dorosh - wow, that is an impressive site you've got there! It really does help in some regards, like service branch colors etc. ! I will surely make use of your invitation and get back atcha via email soon re. the rankpage project! ------------------ "Im off to NZ police collage" (GAZ_NZ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMC Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 Afraid I don't have much to offer on the Stabscharführer rank insignia/chevron/braid question. As for the formsof address used in the W-SS: As I actually pay attention to the usage of Herr by the Waffen SS I see that the Handbook on German Miltary Forces seems to have gotten that right. I never noticed it before. In fact, I haven't found a single instance of someone using Herr with an SS rank when adressing someone. Excerpts (translated by me) The company Kempin captured a number of tents near Dunkirk. One tent was taken by the company headquarters. The first night the following happened: Scarcely had everyone fallen asleep when the commander was disturbed by loud snoring. He ordered Rottenführer Heinzel to leave the tent for snoring. After a little while the HQ NCO was tossed out, then one a runner after another until the commander was alone in the tent. In the morning as the commander came out of the tent having slept poorly, he saw the smiling faces of his soldiers. The Rottenführer said, “After we were all thrown out, only one person was snoring and that was you, Hauptsturmführer.” -------------------------------------- The potatoes were sizzling in the pan when the Spieß came in: “Man, what are you making?” “Bratkartoffeln, Stabscharführer.” And because one never knew what the Spieß wanted Drexler continued: “would you like some too, Stabscharführer?” “sure, but first clear away the chimney. It didn’t survive your way of making a fire.” ---------------------------------------- 13th company, Germania regiment in July 43 training replacements. The company is in the field for gunnery. The signals section is busy setting up commo with a switchboard, field phones and wire to the company CP, platoon CPs, and the maintenance section. The switchboard is constantly busy, under the control of one recruit. 11:10 hours, a call from the regimental CP: “The Adlerhorst here, Schneider (adjutant) connect me with the company commander.” Switchboard “O-o-obersturmf-führer, h-h-he’s n-n-not th-there.” Schneider: “where is he then?” Switchboard: “I-in t-the f-field” Schneider: “When is he coming back?” Switchboard “I-i d-d-don’t kn-know.” Schneider: “say, do you stutter?” Switchboard: “N-n-no, O-obersturmführer, th-the l-l-line is h-h-hot.” That evening the regimental adjutant came and informed the company commander of the conversation he’d had that morning. He wanted to meet the young soldier..... Anyway, it seems pretty standard. These anecdotes are from a collection of them called “Heiteres aus dem Brotbeutel gekrümelt.” [This message has been edited by RMC (edited 02-13-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted February 13, 2001 Author Share Posted February 13, 2001 Thanks for taking the time to clear this up! Does this mean I can lecture Herr Zimmerman on his own language now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMC Posted February 14, 2001 Share Posted February 14, 2001 I don't know about lecturing someone on their own language but you can certainly make a point about an abstract regulation. I found the reference in the Handbook and can't believe I never saw it before now. I would like to find some Dienstvorschriften that actually articulate this policy and perhaps the reasons behind it. I suspect it is just a symptom of Gleichschaltung and a subtle attack on the nobility in the Heer officer corps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMC Posted February 25, 2001 Share Posted February 25, 2001 Found corroboration in another book of mine. R. Schulze-Kossens' "Militärischer Führernachwuchs der Waffen-SS Die Junkerschulen" has a section about social forms that I hadn't paid much attention to before. It is a manuscript used at Bad Tölz in the instruction of the Junkers. It confirms what we already knew, but it spells it out explicitly. "Anrede Dienstgradhöhere mit dem entsprechenden Dienstgrad, Dienstgradgleiche wie Dienstgradniedere bei nicht ausreichender Bekanntschaft mit -Kamerad S.: - z.B. Kamerad Schilling - anreden. Gäste, Wehrmacht und Zivil sind bei höherem Dienstgrad oder ihrer Amtsbezeichnung anzureden, z.B. Herr Oberstleutnant, Herr Oberbürgermeister usw., Frauen jedoch nie die Dienstbeziechnung oder den Titel des mannes geben. ~~ 'Brigadeführer, darf ich Ihnen meine Frau vorstellen...'" Trans. "Modes of Address Those superior in rank are addressed by their corresponding rank, those of the same or of a lower rank are addressed on slight acquaintance as Comrade S.: for example, Comrade Schilling - Guests, members of the Wehrmacht and civilians, if of a higher rank, are to be addressed by this rank, if of the same rank by this rank or official title, for example, Herr Oberstleutnant, Herr Oberbürgermeister etc. Wives however are never given the official designation or the title of their husbands. ~~ 'Brigadeführer, may I introduce my wife...'" [This message has been edited by RMC (edited 02-27-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Hofbauer Posted February 27, 2001 Share Posted February 27, 2001 great stuff RMC! btw, M.Dorosh, back to the Stabsscharführer thingie. I have a picture here in Mollo's book showing not only a Stabsscharführer but a specioal one at that, it's an Unteroffizier in the poition as an Acting Stabsscharführer, hence carrying the official title "Stabsscharführerdiensttuer". ) He is wearing the same double silver braid on both lower sleeves just like the Wehrmacht Hauptfeldwebel!!! ------------------ "Me tank is still alive me churchill's crew must be laughing there heads off." (GAZ_NZ) [This message has been edited by M Hofbauer (edited 02-27-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMC Posted February 27, 2001 Share Posted February 27, 2001 Ok, mister smartypants. Post deleted after Hofbauer edited his post.... [This message has been edited by RMC (edited 02-27-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted February 27, 2001 Author Share Posted February 27, 2001 Fascinating stuff, gentlemen! M. Hofbauer, have you found a photo of the chevron for me yet? Interesting about the double lace. ------------------ CANUCK: Clothing, Equipping and Employing the Canadian Soldier in Combat Mission Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Hofbauer Posted February 27, 2001 Share Posted February 27, 2001 hey Bob, knew you'ld like it ) edit post - for great justice! when do you set me up the bomb (powers & demo) ? Michael, I don't know iof you're familiar with the type of illustrationms Mollo uses. They are re-coloured authentic pictures, so they are essentially drawings, but from real photos. What puzzles me indeed is that the Stabsscharführerdiensttuer shown does not sport the respective chevron we talked about. HOWEVER, while rummaging through my rank page folders I found a scan of a rank page of SS NCO insignia which shows the Stabsscharführer insignia. I'll mail it to you. yours sincerely, M.Hofbauer ------------------ "Me tank is still alive me churchill's crew must be laughing there heads off." (GAZ_NZ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar Posted February 27, 2001 Share Posted February 27, 2001 I believe the "Herr" designation was dropped in the Waffen SS in order to develop a close bond between the officers and men in order to make them a more cohesive, effective combat force. It was felt that some traditional German army ways were too divisive and counter to what leaders like Hausser wanted the Waffen SS to be. I think I read it in "My Loyalty is My Honor" but I am not 100% sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMC Posted February 27, 2001 Share Posted February 27, 2001 Commissar, That's basically what I was alluding to with my comment about Gleichschaltung. Something else worth checking out is the usage in the SA. The SS ranks were borrowed from the SA (from which it was spawned) and this whole thing might also be a carryover of basic NSDAP philosophy and not something that was specifically designed for the SS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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