Sound mod request - night and Waffen SS

[Michael Dorosh]

Couple of mod requests.

First off, I notice that one of the .wav files for the Germans is a guy saying "Jawohl, Herr Unteroffizier." That's fine for the Army, but can someone do one that says "Jawohl Scharführer?" Unteroffizier is an Army rank, and as far as I can tell, the word "Herr" was not used in the Waffen SS (One of their quasi National Socialist ideas was that people were of one status (unless you were a Party official, I guess) - and so they dropped the "Herr")

Secondly, and this applies to all nationalities - forgive me in advance for sounding silly, but I am creeping along at night, the crickets are chirping, not a sound to be heard, the battle hasn't started yet, and then you hear some moron yelling "FORWARRRRRRRRD....MARCH!" or "MARSCH" or whatever! It's unnerving, even!

[Scipio]

.

[ 11-19-2001: Message edited by: Scipio ]</p>

[M Hofbauer]

If anything, it would have to be changed to "Unterscharführer". "Scharführer" equates to an Unterfeldwebel.

Btw, Unteroffizier, besides being a rank, is also a generic term meaning "NCO". In this regard (like, "Unteroffizierskasino") it apples to any NCO-rank from Unteroffizier to Stabsfeldwebel.

Alas, I think your idea is not implementable for the simple fact that the voice file is shared by both force types.

I suggest you stick with Scipio's idea of substituting it with something neutral if it really bothers you.

Btw I think your no-Herr theory is wrong ("Herr" is a regular (+ neutral) form of addressing someone, even if it is followed by the name or rank, and if you simply omit it, it sounds awkward - try it for yourself: "Möchten Sie noch eine Tasse Kaffee, .... Sturmbannführer?" ). Where did you get it from?

[Scipio]

.

[ 11-19-2001: Message edited by: Scipio ]</p>

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by M Hofbauer:

If anything, it would have to be changed to "Unterscharführer". "Scharführer" equates to an Unterfeldwebel.

Alas, I think your idea is not implementable for the simple fact that the voice file is shared by both force types.

Btw I think your no-Herr theory is wrong ("Herr" is a regular (+ neutral) form of addressing someone, even if it is followed by the name or rank, and if you simply omit it, it sounds awkward - try it for yourself: "Möchten Sie noch eine Tasse Kaffee, .... Sturmbannführer?" ). Where did you get it from?

There were two kinds of Unteroffizier - mit portepee and ohne portepee - do you know what the difference was?

Yes, it is shared by both types - you would simply have to swap them out if you were fussy enough. It is wrong for an SS soldier to say it, so it would be equally wrong for an Army soldier if you changed it. Gonna be wrong either way.

Check your copy of the German Military Handbook for the "Herr" stuff. It is possible the US Army got this tidbit wrong, but I have seen other references to this as well. Can anyone confirm?

[This message has been edited by Michael Dorosh (edited 02-11-2001).]

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Scipio:

As German I must know it best:

'Herr' is only a polite empty phrase, directly translated it means 'Master', but it's used like 'Mister'. It has nothing to do with some kind of ranking.

Which is why the SS dropped it, yes?

Was it not used in the Army when addressing a superior? That would imply ranking, no?

The German Army did not have a word for "yes, sir" and so where an American would say "yes, sir", the German would have to reply "Jawohl, Herr Unteroffizier" or whatever his superior's rank designation was.

[This message has been edited by Michael Dorosh (edited 02-11-2001).]

[Scipio]

.

[ 11-19-2001: Message edited by: Scipio ]</p>

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Scipio:

Do you want to give me lessons about my mother tongue

Guten Tag,

HERR Dorosh

Speaking German doesn't make you an expert on military history, Herr Zimmerman.

I take it you're not a soldier, either. The military has very precise ways for their men to relate to each other. They aren't always practiced, and sometimes the opposite is done as a way of making fun. I am a corporal in the Canadian Army, and yes, to follow your example, I have referred to others as "Mister." You won't find that in the regulations anywhere. I certainly wouldn't refer to a private as "Sir" however.

I did not say "Herr" was a rank. To my mind, it implies that the person being addressed is "superior" to you. This is the meaning I infer from the US Army manual I am citing, which also tells me the SS abandoned this practice while the Army did not.

Now, did they get it right, or wrong?

Unless your boss is in the Waffen SS, I am afraid your comments are not helping clear up the confusion.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by M Hofbauer:

If anything, it would have to be changed to "Unterscharführer". "Scharführer" equates to an Unterfeldwebel.

I'm well aware of the table of ranks for SS NCOs, but thank you - I was just pulling a name out of the air. You are correct that the "standard" rank for a squad leader would be Untercharführer, though.

Here is a question - you are aware of what a Hauptfeldwebel is, I hope. What did the SS call them? It is not a rank, but an appointment (called in slang der Spiess). I can't find reference to the SS term anywhere.

Btw, Unteroffizier, besides being a rank, is also a generic term meaning "NCO". In this regard (like, "Unteroffizierskasino") it apples to any NCO-rank from Unteroffizier to Stabsfeldwebel.

Yes, indeed - and divided as I allude to above - Unteroffizier mit Portepee were senior NCOs, Unteroffizier ohne Portepee were junior NCOs.

Btw I think your no-Herr theory is wrong ("Herr" is a regular (+ neutral) form of addressing someone, even if it is followed by the name or rank, and if you simply omit it, it sounds awkward - try it for yourself: "Möchten Sie noch eine Tasse Kaffee, .... Sturmbannführer?" ). Where did you get it from?

Not speaking German fluently, neither one sounds unnatural or awkward. I was hoping someone might know beyond idle speculation. Languages do change over the course of 60 years. (EDIT - sorry, forgot to answer you - I got it from a US Army manual printed during the war, describing in some detail German military practices. There are some errors in it, which leads me to find a better source for this tidbit).

Here's another example - take the word "watch" in either English or German.

In the 1940s, if you said "watch", the first thing someone would think of is a pocket watch (Uhr). To specify one you wear on your arm, you would have had to specify "wristwatch" or "armbanduhr", yes?

Yet today, wristwatches are universal - so if you use the word "watch" that is what comes to mind. In English, to specify the watch without a bracelet, you have to say "pocket watch." Is there a word in German for "pocket watch" today?

A better example in English would be "gay." During WW II, it was used to indicate happiness or frivolity, today it's most widely recognized use appears to be to describe homosexuals.

[This message has been edited by Michael Dorosh (edited 02-11-2001).]

[Scipio]

.

[ 11-19-2001: Message edited by: Scipio ]</p>

[Michael Dorosh]

Before we start to discuss every word in it's historical usage , I recomment to post your 'Herr'-request on the Feldgrau forum, they are experts for the WW-II german forces. Guess you will find more help there.

[M Hofbauer]

M.Dorosh,

sorry but I'm sure your grandma didn't like you cause each time you visited her you told her how she could suck eggs much beter if she did it your wayIOW, you hit upon the right person for your kind of concerns :0)

But on to your questions:

"There were two kinds of Unteroffizier - mit portepee and ohne portepee - do you know what the difference was? ;)"

Generally, only Feldwebel and above were called Unteroffizier mit Portepee (notice capitzal P as it is a noun), meaning that Unteroffizier and Unterfeldwebel were Unteroffiziere ohne Portepee. Fähnriche, equating to Unterfeldwebel rank, accordingly were Unteroffiziere ohne Portepee, the exception being those Fähnriche employed in the military justice branch. Oberfähnriche were technically Unteroffiziere mit Portepee, but practically they were treated like officers, indicated by their officer uniform style, their wear of dagger etc.

The Portepee itself was the sword knot affixed to the sabre, or, when no sabre was worn, to the side arm (bayonet). The original meaning of the Portepee as a sword knot however is misleading however since even Unteroffiziere ohne Portepee carried sabres, hence the original distinction it marked was lost.

Check your copy of the German Military Handbook for the "Herr" stuff. It is possible the US

Army got this tidbit wrong, but I have seen other references to this as well. Can anyone confirm?

you gotta be more specific, you can't expect me to rummage through the whole thing. Besides, as a side note, you are aware that the Handbook on German Military forces contains several glaring errors and shouldn't be considered the Book of Wisdom, are you not?

I'm well aware of the table of ranks for SS NCOs, but thank you - I was just pulling a name

out of the air. You are correct that the "standard" rank for a squad leader would be Untercharführer, though.

if you add an "s", then we agree on the Unterscharführer. However, you are wrong in assuming that a squad leader necessarily would be an Unterscharführer, or vice versa. Squad leader - "Gruppenführer" as a designation of function is theoretically independant of rank; conceded though that the Unteroffizier would be a typical squad leader rank.

if you are claiming that there is an error in CM because there is no Unteroffizier in the SS and you want to replace it with Scharführer then that strikes me as a simple mistake you did; when claiming errors in CM you should at least practice the due diligence to ask for the right correction, not some "pulling out of the air" alternative that is just as wrong. took you long enough to look thatone up btw )

Here is a question - you are aware of what a Hauptfeldwebel is, I hope. What did the SS call them? It is not a rank, but an appointment (called in slang der Spiess). I can't find reference to the SS term anywhere.

SS-Stabsscharführer (not to be confused with the Sturmscharführer *rank* - although both often coincided in one person); designated by a lace chevron stitched onto the lower right sleeve.

yours sincerely,

M.Hofbauer

p.s.: what is it with this fixiation on those ss ranks anyhow? regular army ranks are much more interesting, more logic and structure. all those americans (I don't mean you, M. Dorosh) are running around citing all sort of ss ranks when they wouldn't even know the US Army's ww2 rank system...

[Michael Dorosh]

Edited to revised version below

[This message has been edited by Michael Dorosh (edited 02-12-2001).]

[Michael Dorosh]

M.Dorosh,

sorry but I'm sure your grandma didn't like you cause each time you visited her you told her how she could suck eggs much beter if she did it your wayIOW, you hit upon the right person for your kind of concerns :0)

I take it this is some sort of German folk saying? My grandmother and I never sucked eggs. Not sure what your point is, actually, but let's move on.

But on to your questions:

SS-Stabsscharführer (not to be confused with the Sturmscharführer *rank* - although both often coincided in one person); designated by a lace chevron stitched onto the lower right sleeve.

Thank you, I've wondered about the designation for some time.

However, you say this was a lace CHEVRON? Was this not in fact two rows of braid sewn over the cuff?

Did he also carry the Meldetasche as his Army comrades did?

I see you do indeed know about the portepee etc. - I expected you would. Well done.

ya gotta be more specific, you can't expect me to rummage through the whole thing. Besides, as a side note, you are aware that the Handbook on German Military forces contains several glaring errors and shouldn't be considered the Book of Wisdom, are you not?

I wasn't expecting you to rummage at all, I thought someone (not you necessarily) might know this. As for it containing errors - that's exactly what I said from the outset, yes? Which is why I raise the question here.

if you add an "s", then we agree on the Unterscharführer.

Don't be fatuous, Herr Hofbauer, we both know that's what I meant (naughty boy!)

However, you are wrong in assuming that a squad leader necessarily would be an Unterscharführer, or vice versa.

Squad leader - Gruppenführer" as a designation of function is theoretically independant of rank; conceded though that the

Unteroffizier would be a typical squad leader rank

Massive Sigh. Yes, I meant a "typical" squad leader "rank". In the Canadian Army, a squad leader was a Corporal, but Lance Corporals and Privates often found themselves leading squads, just as Warrant Officers sometimes found themselves leading Companies when the job called for a Major or Captain. (Which brings to mind the whole question of a Kompaniechef vice a Kompanieführer which I won't even go into).

you are claiming that there is an error in CM because there is no Unteroffizier in the SS and you want to replace it with

Scharführer then that strikes me as a simple mistake you did;when claiming errors in CM you should at least practice the due diligence to ask for the right correction, not some "pulling out of the air" alternative that is just as wrong. took you long enough to look thatone up btw )

I wasn't complaining, nor lobbying for change, and I was certainly not saying that CM had made an "error." I was merely making a suggestion on a message board that really wasn't serious, but did manage to stimulate some interesting conversation - yet unfortunately no decent answers to my one main concern (Herr). That would be like saying the American accents that the Canadians use is "wrong." Whether it is or isn't, it's not something I lose sleep over - same with the Unteroffizier thing. My apologies if I've alarmed anyone unnecessarily.

Now, you say yourself there was no set rank for the various command positions - so why would it be so unusual to see the name of a Scharführer mentioned in the context of an infantry platoon? You're not saying that no one in infantry platoons ever carried that rank, are you?

Always learning...

Mike

[M Hofbauer]

I take it this is some sort of German folk saying? My grandmother and I never sucked eggs. Not sure what your point is, actually, but let's move on.

It's a metaphor/proverb that is - to my understanding - rather popular among your US-american neighbours. I am surprised to see that you do not know it?? Anyways, I was under the mistaken suppression thjat you were US-american.

However, you say this was a lace CHEVRON?

yes.

Was this not in fact two rows of braid sewn over the cuff?

Grasshopper,

it seems you are confusing this with the Wehrmacht Hauptfeldwebel. Now - _you_ were the one to ask for the SS equivalent to the Wehrmacht Spiess, and now you are confusing the two? Tsk, tsk, tsk :0)

M. Dorosh,

all joking/jabbing aside, yes, the SS company sergeant guy had a chevron, while the Wehrmacht guy for the same function had double rows on the cuffs for identification of function.

I remember this Stabsscharführer issue well because it gave me a considerable headache a year or so ago when I researched this thing for the rank page project. I stumbled over this mysterious Stabsscharführer rank again every once in a while, and I was dumbfounded as it didn't fit into my rank atbles and equivalents etc. I had from everywhere else. A couple of people, foremost Vadim Kolosov, helped me clear this up, when it became obvious what the Stabsscharführer was.

The chevron is rather thick and steep. Roughly comparable to the Gefreiter (Sturmmann) chevron, but with no dark background and much thicker and steeper.

Did he also carry the Meldetasche as his Army comrades did?

I do not know. I'm prety confident though that - unlike the double row of braids - the Meldetasche was not constitutive as a designation for the Hauptfeldwebel, nor mandatory, only decaratory at best whenever/if it was present.

Now, you say yourself there was no set rank for the various command positions - so why would it be so unusual to see the name of a Scharführer mentioned in the context of an infantry platoon? You're not saying that no one in infantry platoons ever carried that rank, are you?

M.Dorosh, you yourself admitted that your Scharführer is wrong as a direct equivalent to the Wehrmacht/Heer Unteroffizier. I never said anything else either, especially not that no one in infantry platoons ever carried that rank.

yours sincerely,

M.Hofbauer

[Michael Dorosh]

Fascinating bit about the chevron - I have seen illustrations (not photos) purporting to be der Spiess of SS units showing the braid. Men at ARms and Squadron Signal seem to be of dubious value as far as sources go, and this is just more icing on the cake (or nails in the coffin). Thanks very much - I don't suppose there are any photos on line somewhere that I could see this insignia? You've aroused my curiousity.

M

[M Hofbauer]

Btw,

M. "Mike" Dorosh,

since I was gonna look up your question about this Meldetasche thing, it would be helpful if you could relate who/what gave you that idea, IOW, what is your source for the fact that there was some sort of Meldetasche that was unique to the Hauptfeldwebel?

(I hope we both agree that the term "Meldetasche" itself isn't very helpful since it is too generic and hence applies too generally to any sort of such container/briefcase - right?)

[Michael Dorosh]

Oh, one other thing - this is not a criticism of you, merely offered in case you may find it of use or interest.

In English, we draw a distinction between an Appointment and a Rank.

For example Warrant Officer II Class is a rank. A person holding this rank in an infantry battalion would usually also hold the appointment of Company Sergeant Major, or alternately Regimental Quartermaster Sergeant. He could properly be addressed as either, but technically should be called by his appointment name (CSM or RQMS).

I don't know if this translates in the German language, but the idea is the same, and makes it easier for me to visualize this situation.

In the German example, then, a soldier may hold the rank of Oberfeldwebel, but his appointment would be Hauptfeldwebel.

You may find the distinction convenient to use in conversation (or not), especially when dealing in English with these matters - I merely offer it to you in hopes it might make things easier for you at some point in the future.

The distinction is, I hope, readily apparent to those who use English exlusively, especially those who have done some research into things such as rank stuctures.

Thanks for finding the time to provide answers for my questions.

[M Hofbauer]

M.,

yes, I have worked with the Men At Arms series and it's book on the SS in question and I can confrirm from memory that it contained numerous errors.

Personally, I doubt that the SS Stabsscharführer used the double braid, I seem to remember otherwise but this is from memory.

Unfortunately, I am not in posession of that book anymore, and I don't have any other books with large numbers of pictures on the SS either, since I am not especially a "fan" of that topic, so I merely collected what info I needed (=ranks) and that was that.

Maybe RMC is able to shed some light on the questions that remain in this thread, which are

1) did the SS - Spiess (conmpany sergeant) = Stabsscharführer wear the same double braids as the equivalent Wehrmacht Hauptfeldwebel (should be easy to confirm, all we need is a picture showing an SS soldier with said double braids OR a picture of an SS Stabsscharführer (respective chevron) w/o the double braids)

2)did the SS indeed drop the "Herr" address as is supposedly related by the Handbook on German Military Forces

[edited to re-phrase for more clarity]

[This message has been edited by M Hofbauer (edited 02-12-2001).]

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by M Hofbauer:

Btw,

M. "Mike" Dorosh,

since I was gonna look up your question about this Meldetasche thing, it would be helpful if you could relate who/what gave you that idea, IOW, what is your source for the fact that there was some sort of Meldetasche that was unique to the Hauptfeldwebel?

(I hope we both agree that the term "Meldetasche" itself isn't very helpful since it is too generic and hence applies too generally to any sort of such container/briefcase - right?)

I WAS a Hauptfeldwebel - of a sort, anyway. In a re-enactment unit (don't hit me!) We re-enacted Grossdeutschland, specifically the 7th Company of the Panzerfusilierregiment.

I got the info from some other re-enactors in the States (to answer your other concern, I am Canadian).

I also used Brian L. Davis as a reference.

I never said (or meant to say) the Meldetasche was a badge of rank - only that der Spiess carried one. He was the only one who could get away with carrying it visibily on his uniform, sticking out from behind the second button hole (I've seen one photo of a Spiess in an AFV uniform (black "panzer" uniform) wearing the pouch also.

I am sure you are right that it was optionally worn and not "officially" a badge or indicator of rank or status - but like the brown belt favoured by officers (even when ordered to wear black), I think "old soldiers" would have preferred to wear it (at least in garrison) as an indicator of status. No?

I have never seen a decent photo of a Meldetasche, so I do not know if there was a specific pattern or design - given Germany's love of cottage industries, and lack of uniformity in most other areas of dress, I would tend to believe (as you apparently do) that the pouch may have even been a private purchase item (in the same manner that officers had to buy their uniforms).

[M Hofbauer]

M.,

thanks for your offer, I appreciate it.

In the German example, then, a soldier may hold the rank of Oberfeldwebel, but his appointment would be Hauptfeldwebel.

I am fully aware of that distinction between rank and administrative position, I think this has become clear because it is at the base of our Hauptfeldwebel/Spiess - issue.

Thanks for the alternative word "appointment" for that "administrative position", though!

Let me point out to you, too, only as an information which you possibly might know very well already, too,

that Hauptfeldwebel would not necessarily have to be an Oberfeldwebel (which you are correct it usually was). I had documented various examples where Feldwebel were assigned the Hauptfeldwebel slot - I later gave up documenting further examples of this happening after I realized that this was rather common during the war. Don't remember any occurences of Unterfeldwebel being Hauptfeldwebel (a nice literal oxymoron btw) but it seems not entirely out of question to me.

[edited to re-phrase for more clarity]

[This message has been edited by M Hofbauer (edited 02-12-2001).]

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by M Hofbauer:

M.,

thanks for your offer, I appreciate it.

I am fully aware of that distinction between rank and administrative position, I think this has become clear because it is at the base of our Hauptfeldwebel/Spiess - issue.

Thanks for the alternative word "appointment" for that "administrative position", though!

Let me point out to you, too, only as an information which you possibly might know very well already, too,

that Hauptfeldwebel would not necessarily have to be an Oberfeldwebel (which you are correct it usually was). I had documented various examples where Feldwebel were assigned the Hauptfeldwebel slot - I later gave up documenting further examples of this happening after I realized that this was rather common during the war. Don't remember Unterfeldwebel being Hauptfeldwebel (a nice literal oxymoron btw) but it seems not out of question to me.

It may interest you to know that in one of Brian L. Davis' books, there is a photo of an UNTEROFFIZIER acting as Hauptfeldwebel. A rarity to be sure, but it did happen.

[M Hofbauer]

It may interest you to know that in one of Brian L. Davis' books, there is a photo of an UNTEROFFIZIER acting as Hauptfeldwebel. A rarity to be sure, but it did happen.

that is an interesting find indeed!

would you care to share *any* details please?

[M Hofbauer]

M. Dorosh,

I never said (or meant to say) the Meldetasche was a badge of rank - only that der Spiess carried one. He was the only one who could get away with carrying it visibily on his uniform, sticking out from behind the second button hole (I've seen one photo of a Spiess in an AFV uniform (black "panzer" uniform) wearing the pouch also.

I am sure you are right that it was optionally worn and not "officially" a badge or indicator of rank or status - but like the brown belt favoured by officers (even when ordered to wear black), I think "old soldiers" would have preferred to wear it (at least in garrison) as an indicator of status. No?

I have never seen a decent photo of a Meldetasche, so I do not know if there was a specific pattern or design - given Germany's love of cottage industries, and lack of uniformity in most other areas of dress, I would tend to believe (as you apparently do) that the pouch may have even been a private purchase item (in the same manner that officers had to buy their uniforms).

oooh - if you were referring to the Meldetasche in general,

then IIRC it was more common to call it a Kartentasche since that was what the "Meldekartentasche" (official designation) was used for. This was also why it was an official issue item and handed out to and carried by not only Hauptfeldwebel but also certain personnel like Forward Observers or Kradmelder.

Yes it also existed as a private purchase item but as such usually only for officers.

This also answers your other question, No, there was no specific pattern or design for the Meldetasche. Although such an offical pattern existed in form of the Meldekartentasche 35 (introduced 1936 *g*), all sorts of private purchase versions and captured enemy examples were in use.

yours sincerely,

M.Hofbauer

[M Hofbauer]

M. Dorosh,

I never said (or meant to say) the Meldetasche was a badge of rank - only that der Spiess carried one. He was the only one who could get away with carrying it visibily on his uniform, sticking out from behind the second button hole (I've seen one photo of a Spiess in an AFV uniform (black "panzer" uniform) wearing the pouch also.

I am sure you are right that it was optionally worn and not "officially" a badge or indicator of rank or status - but like the brown belt favoured by officers (even when ordered to wear black), I think "old soldiers" would have preferred to wear it (at least in garrison) as an indicator of status. No?

I have never seen a decent photo of a Meldetasche, so I do not know if there was a specific pattern or design - given Germany's love of cottage industries, and lack of uniformity in most other areas of dress, I would tend to believe (as you apparently do) that the pouch may have even been a private purchase item (in the same manner that officers had to buy their uniforms).

oooh - if you were referring to the Meldetasche in general,

then IIRC it was more common to call it a Kartentasche since that was what the "Meldekartentasche" (official designation) was used for. This was also why it was an official issue item and handed out to and carried by not only Hauptfeldwebel but also certain personnel like Forward Observers or Kradmelder.

Yes it also existed as a private purchase item but as such usually only for officers.

This also answers your other question, No, there was no specific prescribed pattern or design for the Meldetasche, although such an offical pattern existed in form of the offficial Meldekartentasche 35 (introduced 1936 *g*), in fact all sorts of private purchase versions and captured enemy examples were in use.

yours sincerely,

M.Hofbauer