OT - Help With Brit Tactical Markings

[Forever Babra]

I need some assistance with tactical markings for the 144th Regiment RAC, for a modelling project.

I know the Regiment carried a tactical number "174", but I have no other info. There is a pic of a platoon rolling toward Caen on page 64 of "D-Day to Berlin" (incorrectly identified as the 12th Cdn. Armoured Reg't, The Three Rivers Reg't, which also carried 174 as a tac number), which shows large white call-sign numbers on the turret sides and rear, but I can find no other info or photos of the unit.

Since the unit belonged to an independent tank brigade (33rd), I'm fairly certain the squadron insignia (not visible in the pic) would be white. After that, I'm in the wilderness.

Does anyone have any info/pics on or of this regiment? I know there are some good books in print on the subject, but I'm a little unwilling (read: unable) to shell out at the moment. Any help would be appreciated.

[Michael Dorosh]

HQ Squadron - diamond

A Squadron -triangle

B Squadron - square

C Squadron - circle

Colour depends on seniority in the Brigade; white was for the recce regiment, red for senior armoured regiment, yellow for next senior, blue for junior.

I have no idea what the Brigade insignia was.

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[Michael Dorosh]

Are you sure they were 33rd Armoured Bde? My listing for that bde lists the Staffordshire Yeomanry, 1st Northamptonshire Yeomanry, 1st East Riding Yeomanry and 11th RTR - and all of them were LVT regiments. They were one of the special purpose brigades in 79th Armoured Division.

[Forever Babra]

I figured you'd be lurking...

Okay, that's one step up. I thought as part of an independent brigade the sqdn insig would be white. I didn't realize they carried the seniority system. That would make it yellow.

Anyone else got any more info or pics?

And since one good turn deserves another, you might find the name of that bagpipe tune somewhere among the thousands of midis at http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/7562/MUSIC.htm I know I've heard it before, but damned if I ever knew the name of it.

EDIT: Commander: Brigadier HB Scott

Units 13/6/44 to 13/8/44:

Headquarters (172)

1st Northamptonshire Yeomanry (173)

144th RAC (174)

148th RAC (175)

Units 16/8/44 to 18/1/45

Headquarters (151)

1st Northamptonshire Yeomanry (152)

East Riding Yeomanry (153)

144th RAC (154)

Battles: 4-18/7/44 Caen.

The unit was transferred to 79th AD in January 45. No doubt your listing is from after that point.

[This message has been edited by Forever Babra (edited 02-06-2001).]

[Michael Dorosh]

I can't guarantee that every brigade used the same colour scheme, but the four Canadian armoured brigades did - two of which were independent.

Thanks for the link - I don't have the strength to listen to all those awful midis!

[Forever Babra]

I feel your pain

Anyway, the info I still need is:

1) <s>The colour of of the background on the tac marking.</s>

2) <s>The brigade insignia (if any)</s>

3) Any other unusual features of this regiment.

EDIT: Aha! Okay, now I've got the Brigade insignia. Not terribly dramatic but at least it will be easy to paint!

[This message has been edited by Forever Babra (edited 02-06-2001).]

[Michael Dorosh]

Tac marking - actually, to be technical, I think you are referring to the Unit Sign, yes? The 174 number?

This is the tricky question - the Canadian Armoured brigades within the armoured divs had unit signs on a red background - with two digit numbers in the 50s (51, 52, 53 etc.)

The 1st independent tank brigade had a edit - blue over brown unit sign with three digit numbers.

The 2nd independent tank brigade had the standard red unit signs and two digit numbers as the regular tank brigades - but with a white bar underneath.

Don't know how different British practice was. Can you tell by your photo if the unit sign has a two-colour backing? If so, I would make it blue over brown.

There is a colour photo of this marking (as worn by the tanks at Dieppe) on my website - I can't post a link to the pic only, unfortunately since it is a freeserver - it is about halfway down the page.

http://www.canuck.freehosting.net/colourphotos.htm

Hope this helps.

[This message has been edited by Michael Dorosh (edited 02-06-2001).]

[Forever Babra]

It's very difficult to tell from the pic if the background to the unit serial number is two-tone or not. There's a heavy coat of road dust on the vehicles in the column.

The British system conforms to the Canadian (or vice versa) of three digits for independent units, two digits for "divisioned" units.

Since the unit serial number of the Three Rivers was blue over brown, and also 174, I'm inclined to believe the colours would not be the same for the 144th RAC. Still, one never knows...

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Forever Babra:

It's very difficult to tell from the pic if the background to the unit serial number is two-tone or not. There's a heavy coat of road dust on the vehicles in the column.

The British system conforms to the Canadian (or vice versa) of three digits for independent units, two digits for "divisioned" units.

Since the unit serial number of the Three Rivers was blue over brown, and also 174, I'm inclined to believe the colours would not be the same for the 144th RAC. Still, one never knows...

The colours didn't (or shouldn't have) changed from div to div - the unit signs for the three Canadian infantry divisions, for example, were identical throughout the division. IE - the middle brigade had 60, 61, and 62 on green squares in all three division.

The colours behind the unit sign numbers designated branch more than unit - black was used for headquarters units, red and blue for artillery, red and green for service troops, etc. The blue and brown would simply have designated the armoured regiments of an independent armoured brigade.

I'd say blue and brown would be your best bet; the chance that the bde in question was different does exist.

[Forever Babra]

Thanks to Rob Casey who dropped me an email with the info gleaned from "From D-Day to VE Day, The British Soldier" Volume II (Jean

Bouchery / Histoire & Collections), that the unit number would be on a red background over a white bar.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Forever Babra:

Thanks to Rob Casey who dropped me an email with the info gleaned from "From D-Day to VE Day, The British Soldier" Volume II (Jean

Bouchery / Histoire & Collections), that the unit number would be on a red background over a white bar.

Huh! That would be a mix between the method of the two Canadian independent brigades - three digit number on red field over white bar (both described in my post above). Typical army thinking....thanks for the scoop.

[Doodlebug]

According to "British Tank Markings And Names", B.T.White,Arms And Armour Press,ISBN 0853682224.

Having been re-equipped with Shermans for the D-Day campaign, individual vehicles were identified by the display of large serial numbers on both sides and the rear of the turret.

The numbers were allocated thus:

Recon Troop(Stuarts) 1 to 11

AA Troop(Crusaders) 12 to 17

Regt. HQ.(Shermans) 20 to 23

A Sqnd. (Shermans) 30 to 49

B Sqnd. ( Ditto. ) 50 to 69

C Sqnd. ( Ditto. ) 70 to 89

Allocated for spares 18 to 19 and 24 to 29.

This book has one photo of tanks of B squadron advancing in column,63,62,65,64 and 66. The 174 unit code is visible on the rear most vehicle. The brigade marking is correct as far as I can tell.

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IN DEFEAT MALICE,

IN VICTORY REVENGE!

[Forever Babra]

Doodlebug, thank you so much! Okay, so now I know the tanks in the picture (the subject of my model) are from B Sqdn. The pic in "D-Day to Berlin" is the same one you describe.

Is yours of any better quality? It appears there "might" be a bar under the 174, but the pic is so grainy and the dust so thick, it's really hard to tell.

For those interested, a 1024x768 scan of the pic can be seen at http://www.geocities.com/babrakhan2001/144rac.jpg

[This message has been edited by Forever Babra (edited 02-06-2001).]

[Michael Dorosh]

Babra, the nicest thing about modelling armour, is that if you make a mistake, or aren't sure about a marking - you can just plaster it with mud!

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[Doodlebug]

Glad to be of assistance. I suspect my print copy is no better than yours. The 174 appears to be painted on a "box"(I have no idea what it is) attached to the rear of the vehicle. There appears to be no underlining in my photo. The peculiar thing to my eyes is that although the 7 continues to full length the 1 and 4 are truncated by a clear joint or line about 1/4 the way up. I can just about detect it in your scan. The 4 is clearly a 4 but has the appearance of an inverted lopsided V Perhaps your copy can throw more light on that area than mine.

[Michael Dorosh]

Are we sure that "174" is the correct unit serial? In this case, the sledgehammer is mounted where the one of the signs usually went. With the odd placement of the "number" on the box like apparatus, and the strange shadow splitting the one and the four...is it possible this isn't really a unit sign at all?

[This message has been edited by Michael Dorosh (edited 02-07-2001).]

[Forever Babra]

The pic in the book is a little clearer than the scan. When I scan from low quality paper I get those grainy diagonal lines, which is a pain.

The brigade insignia is just barely visible in between the sledge head and the retaining strap, under the hammer handle. Definitely a 33rd Bde vehicle, although without knowing what I was looking for, I would never have seen it. The box is a first aid kit, standard on Brit Shermans -- the 174 is more visible than it is in the scan, but as doodlebug says, the lower portion of the numbers is slightly obscured, probably because the box is not large enough to accomodate the full size unit serial.

I believe the white bar is located below the first aid kit, on the hull itself.

.

[This message has been edited by Forever Babra (edited 02-07-2001).]

[Michael Dorosh]

Thanks Babra - what is also of interest to me - I looked through some books last night because I thought the placement of the unit sign was odd. It seems on Canadian vehicles the unit sign and formation sign read from left to right when you were facing either the front or back - but on somr Brit vehicles, they were reversed on the back of the vehicle, so that the formation sign was always on the "driver's side." Something for other Brit vehicle modders to be aware of, I guess. Will you be posting a picture of your Sherman for us - I take it this isn't for a mod but for a mod-el? Maybe you could post it in the general forum?

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[Doodlebug]

I've re-examined my copy of the photo in question and yes the brigade is present under the sledgehammer. I've checked all my sources with regards to background colour and the best I can say is that if it had been a divisional rather than a brigade formation it would have been a red square background. Not a lot of use that! The only reference I have found is this and follows on from describing the red background detailed above.

".... but for the tank brigades various one or two colour schemes existed."

I'm afraid that's about as far as I can go at the moment with the information I have to hand. Perhaps someone else will be able to help further. Wishing you success.

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IN DEFEAT MALICE,

IN VICTORY REVENGE!

[Forever Babra]

D-Day to Berlin lists the following arm of service colours for the background:

HQ (Including medical, MP, Postal and Intelligence units) - Black

RASC - red over green, diagonally, top right to bottom left

Signals - White over blue

Engineers - Light Blue

REME - blue/yellow/red

RAOC - blue/red/blue - divided vertically

RA - red over blue.

Recce - green over blue

Sr. Armoured Bde of Div and Sr. Inf. Bde of Div - Red

Jr. Armoured Bde of Div and 2nd Inf. Bde of Div - Green

Jr. Inf Bde of Div - Brown.

Nowhere are independent brigades listed

Mr. Wise mentions that placement of the unit serial number, arm of service colour, and brigade sign, varied widely, so it's not too surprising they appear reversed.

[Michael Dorosh]

I'll also add that the numbers were white, except signals units, who painted them in red during the latter part of the war.

I believe Divisional MG units were also on black.

Sounds like a good book to have; have you tried Barry Beldam's website? He's got a good book on Canadian Armoured unit markings - if you emailed him he might know about the 33rd for sure. I would post also at the messageboard at Maple Leaf Up - www.mapleleafup.org - someone there might have an answer - lots of British, Austrailian, and Dutch vehicle nuts there with an interest in WW II Commonwealth.

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[Forever Babra]

While sitting here feeling all smug and satisfied that I've gleaned enough info to "do it right" I had the most horrible thought:

What if the red background over white bar described in the Bouchery book is from 1945 when the 144th was divisioned? That would certainly revive the blue over brown theory for an independent unit in July 44.

I'm going to lay down now. I have a headache...

[Michael Dorosh]

I would have leaned towards brown/blue all along, but you sounded so positive! LOL! The three digit combination really does not sound like it matches a red background, but the only examples I know of for sure are 1 and 2 Cdn Amd Bdes. I'll see if Geoff at MLU knows anything.

You've got my curiousity aroused now, too. Ever since I got the bright idea of putting up the units signs for infantry divisions on my website about two years ago, I've been finding out more info - always in bits and pieces. Put the model on the shelf....

[Forever Babra]

I decided to investigate some more British independents to see what I could find.

All of the independent armour brigades in Normandy seem to have used a three digit unit serial. 8th AB specifically used three digits on a red arm of service flash. I wasn't able to identify the arm of service colour on any others.

I'm going to trust Bouchery and go with red. Looks nicer anyway.

[Doodlebug]

I have scratched around some more and have re-examined the source I quoted above. It differentiates between armoured brigades which used a red background and tank brigades which used other one or two colour schemes. It makes more sense in that case if that is so. There were differences between tank and armoured brigades. Divisional units had a 2 digit unit code, independant brigades 3. The 8th Armoured Brigade, 1944, used 994,995 and 996. You should use white on red for your 33rd Armoured Brigade project the only thing I can't confirm is the white underlining.