Lack of White Phosphorus rounds fo Shermans

[BsChoy]

I am a what could be called a huge WWII buff and have been since I was knee high to a grasshopper. In the books I have read regarding the use of WP rounds in the recent past I found more than a few referrences to the heavy use of WP. In Normandy in 1944 we used it to clear the corners of hedgerows of the crisscrossing machine gun nests the Germans would setup to ambush our soldiers. The shermans would fire a round or two of WP into each corner of the opposite side and the rake the opposite bank with the .50 cal and some standard HE rounds. The second instance was the technique used when the first Tiger tanks showed up in front of the light shermans. A WP round was fired directly into the front of the Tiger. It of course didn't penetrate but, the crew inside thought they were on fire and they would bail out. A sherman in the first fight vs togers "knocked" 2-3 tigers out without a penetrating shot!! I the guide for the game you mention it might unbalance the game unfairly to the Americans...but have you ever had multiple rounds from a td-10 tank destroyers 76mm gun fired from less than 100m shatter upon impact with a Tiger and some hull down Panthers?? If anythnig was unfair in that war it was the lack of adequate armor we had....the german high velocity 75's tore through our shermans, which they called brunsons after the brand of cigarette lighter, as they always burned on the first attempt, much like the lighter. Please reconsider this decision and make a mod for the game or in CMII create the ability to shoot these rounds.

[Guest Babra]

All's fair in cess and war.

Brunson? Is that what you get when you cross a Ronson with a Bunsen Burner?

[Olle Petersson]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BsChoy:

Please reconsider this decision and make a mod for the game or in CMII create the ability to shoot these rounds.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Those rounds are already there! Marked with an S and more known by the name "smoke", which is exactly what they were, swiftly producing a large white cloud that dissappeared after a short while.

They're not that numerous for tanks though, and the morale effect of being hit is negligable.

Cheers

Olle

[Mark IV]

Smoke and WP rounds are not the same. Smoke rounds do not start fires and singe enemy troops. They just emit smoke from the base of the shell.

WP burns. It can be used for cover, but is much less effective for this purpose than smoke rounds, because it tends to pillar rather than billow, and dissipates more quickly. It was used to mark targets, more than to hide movement. Mostly it was prized for the ability to cause enemy casualties and start fires.

[Mattias]

And also one of the oldest discussions on this forum.

BTS decision not implement the "offensive" use of WP was, IIRC, based on, partly, problems with historical documentation and, perhaps most importantly, trouble implementing it in CM in a realistic manner.

M.

[Olle Petersson]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mark IV:

Smoke rounds do not start fires and singe enemy troops. They just emit smoke from the base of the shell.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>This is the Hexaclorene smoke rounds as displayed in the old CM Beta. Grey columns of smoke that stay there for several turns. Not available in the later versions of CM.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>WP burns. ... it tends to pillar rather than billow, and dissipates more quickly.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>- When burning it produces lots of white smoke.

- To negate the pillar effect WP rounds had a small explosive inside that spread the phosphorus over a larger are.

- The white cloud dissappear in a minute, so you have to keep firing rounds on the target if you want the smoke to remain longer than that.

- The incendiary and toxic effects of WP weren't really utilised until after WW2. Adding these effects to the WP in CMBO would pave the way for an extremely gamey use of it in other ways than as the "quick-n'-dirty" smoke round it was meant to be (and historically used as).

If there's any need for changes of smoke properties in CM it's in the reaction of those inside the (WP) smoke. A moral impact rather than physical...

Then it would be nice to have the artillery use "real" HC smoke, instead of the current WP that force you to use up all available ammo if you want a simple smoke screen.

Cheers

Olle

[Mark IV]

You could start around here

Willy Pete

and work your way forward. By September 1999, people were already saying "Do A Search!" when the subject arose.

Back then, Search didn't allow you to make a pot of coffee and drink a cup while waiting for the results, either.

It does seem that WP for 75s was a later development, at least as far as availability in the ETO. The July '44 FM 17-12 Tank Gunnery manual describes the M80 WP round for the 105, but does not even mention it for the 75 or, of course, the Stuart.

[Dirtweasle]

WP rounds missing though discussed ad infintim remain missing. From what I recall reading in some books; they were part of the SOP developed in the bocage fighting. The accounts I've read led me to believe they were fairly common, either that or I've just stumbled across reading about them as a freak coincedence, over and over.

Should no more posts have been made about Tiger tanks mantlet being off, not turning on a dime, etc. etc. after it was brought up a few times?

[Matthew_Ridgeway]

I’m with Dirtweasle. So what if it’s been discussed before. How many books have been written on the Eastern Front and folks are still crankin’ more **** out. Maybe we should go knock on David Glantz’s door before he cranks out yet another book on why the Russian Army Rules! And tell him to go do a “search”.

Regarding smoke rounds and the 75mm…FM17-12 (the May 15, 1942 version) does talk about proper uses of smoke shells. So although they may not have had WP for the 75mm at that point in the war, there did seem to be a smoke round available for the Sherman or Grant/Lee.

Regarding when a 75mm WP round was introduced … dunno for sure. However, I have read an account of a Sherman Crew deliberately firing WP at Panthers during the Lorraine Campaign…that would put it in service by at least September’ish of 1944. It apparently made the victim Panther crews believe their tank had caught fire. Last one out is a French fry. Belton Copper in “Death Traps” relays a similar tactic being employed by a Sherman Crew against two King Tigers in early 45. The Tiger crews also bailed quick.

One advantage WP was supposed to have over other forms of smoke delivery was an almost instantaneous large, dense screen. This was a function of the bursting charge (as already indicated by Olle). No waiting ala. Smoke candles, smoke pots or other more conventional forms of screening smoke. Perhaps, as already indicated, the burn time duration was less.