What's so gamey about SMG squad rushes?

[olandt]

I've heard in a couple of spots now about how a SMG rush is "Gamey". Why is that? Isn't the POINT of a SMG squad is to have overwhelming firepower at point blank range? To get to point blank range, you need to rush them. I thought this was just good infantry tactics.

The Germans knew this, that's why the squads where created. In fact, they had a predessesor in WWI where the germans used similar squads to great effect in their last big west front offensive. As far as being common on the battlefield, someone else posted that the Volksgrenedier squads composed 40% of the Army at one point (I'll have to find the post).

Something I find gamey is the tactic of ordering artilery barages on single spot and then cancelling them, and then reordering, basically emulating a TRP. THAT's gamey.

[David Aitken]

There is nothing gamey about SMG squads. However, they are being tweaked in CM2 so that rifle squads have more ammunition, as they will typically do more firing at long ranges, while SMG squads can only fire effectively at short range. Rifle squads will therefore have more of a chance to pick off SMG squads at a distance.

I'm not sure what you mean about re-ordering barrages on the same spot. If anything, what you can do in CM is lacking compared to what you could do in reality. In CM you can fire at point A, then fire at point B, but if you want to retarget point A, you have to start from scratch. In reality you could ask the battery to save the coordinates for point A and immediately retarget it in a fraction of the time.

What you may be thinking of is the ability to adjust fire. Once the battery has opened up, you can adjust their target within a certain range, and not suffer the full delay. If you can anticipate where the enemy is going to appear, you can call in a barrage and hope that the delay end coincides with the appearance of enemy troops close to your target. This is a perfectly legitimate tactic, and again, in reality you could do much more.

[offtaskagain]

I find nothing wrong with SMG squad rushes. Volksgrenadiers made up a large percentage of the western front divisions by late '44. Since their rifle companies were organized on the line of 2 SMG platoons and 1 rifle platoon, that would mean there were quite a few SMG squads running around. Their real life tactic was to rush the enemy defenses. Of course American artillery usually cut them down, but thats what they did in real life.

[SenorBeef]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by olandt:

I've heard in a couple of spots now about how a SMG rush is "Gamey". Why is that? Isn't the POINT of a SMG squad is to have overwhelming firepower at point blank range? To get to point blank range, you need to rush them. I thought this was just good infantry tactics.

The Germans knew this, that's why the squads where created. In fact, they had a predessesor in WWI where the germans used similar squads to great effect in their last big west front offensive. As far as being common on the battlefield, someone else posted that the Volksgrenedier squads composed 40% of the Army at one point (I'll have to find the post).

Something I find gamey is the tactic of ordering artilery barages on single spot and then cancelling them, and then reordering, basically emulating a TRP. THAT's gamey.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There were several discussions regarding various "gaminess" issues involving SMGs.

1) Rushes/human waves were seen as too effective because attackers didn't have to worry about friendly fire, and defenders were limited to one target per team.

2) SMGs are gamey because, if you do the math, they're actually more accurate than garands at 40 meters, in CM game terms. Look for jason's infantry ammo posts for the math.

3) Rushes in general aren't accurately modelled because even though you're moving at, I believe 3.4 m/s, really running at a target, CM still models half the squad laying down cover fire, leapfrogging, ect.

4) SMGs are ridiculously cheap for their usage. They actually cost less than regular rifle platoons - and I don't think anyone is going to argue that rifle platoons are more effective.

There are probably more - but I wanted to illustrate that there were several issues around "smg rushes" - people aren't dismissing them as ahistorical, but inaccurately modelled.

[ 06-21-2001: Message edited by: SenorBeef ]

[Warmaker]

The Germans were giving out lots of SMGs late in the war for a few factors. One, training was at a minimum compared to shooting a rifle or an Stg.-44. SMGs are short ranged, fully automatic weapons so training was low because of this.

Personally, I'll still take a Heer/Waff.-SS Rifle platoon. They can engage targets better at longer ranges and if you catch the enemy at <100m then the target is in deep sh!t to begin with. The Rifle squads have an MP-40, Stg.-44, and a friggin' LMG42! Close range fire, though not as high as Panzergrenadiers, Fallschirmjager, and SMG squads, it is still respectable and can wither a target down considerably.

The best, most effective use for the SMG platoons are in limited visibility and bad weather conditions where LOS is cut drastically short. Urban combat is also their element but shooting down those long avenues and streets is not their cup of tea, but proper usage of supporting HMG-42 teams can cut this problem down considerably.

Thick fog, night scenarios, occupying VLs are good duties for them too. Another good way I guess is to act as that "infantry screen" for your more valuable toys like bunkers, ATGs, expensive panzers and cover their flanks.

[ 06-21-2001: Message edited by: Warmaker ]

[abuhabib]

i haven't suffered any smg squad rushes, but i had a panther rush the victory flag during the last 2 rounds. luckily(?), in the last round, CAS immobilised it. needless 2 say, it was close enuff to tag the vf.