Input Request

[Gunny Bunny]

Hello,

Question #1

A British six ( 6 ) pounder anti-tank gun with a 57mm gun. How would this

compare in power to say a tank gun ??

I presume since it is specifically designed as an anti-tank weapon that it has the

ability to do more damage than equal size tank guns.

Or is a 57mm AT the same as a Tank with a 57mm ??

Question #2

I drove my tank to the wall "Edge" for some reason the AI allowed the tank to

drive partially through the wall.

In CM should I put it slightly behind the wall for best protection or allow

what the AI did and have it partially through ??

I know what real life dictates, but this is a video game.

Thx,

GB

[109 Gustav]

Originally posted by Gunny Bunny:

Question #2

I drove my tank to the wall "Edge" for some reason the AI allowed the tank to

drive partially through the wall.

In CM should I put it slightly behind the wall for best protection or allow

what the AI did and have it partially through ??

When giving movement orders, place the move marker behind the wall. This will sometimes leave the front of the tank sticking out, especially if you have unit scaling turned on, but the tank is modeled as being behind the wall.

------------------

Well my skiff's a twenty dollar boat, And I hope to God she stays afloat.

But if somehow my skiff goes down, I'll freeze to death before I drown.

And pray my body will be found, Alaska salmon fishing, boys, Alaska salmon fishing.

The Last Defense- Mods, Scenarios, and more!

[David Aitken]

Gunny Bunny wrote:

A British six ( 6 ) pounder anti-tank gun with a 57mm gun. How would this compare in power to say a tank gun ??

I'm afraid I'm not too knowledgeable on this particular subject, but I suspect that as the British Army's main infantry AT asset on entering the war was the Boys anti-tank rifle, then an AT gun would similarly be designed for maximum penetration and tank-killing. I could, however, be completely wrong. =)

In CM should I put it slightly behind the wall for best protection or allow what the AI did and have it partially through ??

Units 'in' a wall will be as their location suggests, and thus will afford no protection from the wall. Fight from behind walls, say 5 or 10 yards in real-world terms.

David

------------------

Maybe its time BTS published a CM:Lite to go along with Quake 3? – JunoReactor

[jasoncawley@ameritech.net]

The 6 lber and 57mm ATG are the same weapon, although the U.S. and Brits used slightly different ammo if I recall correctly. The 57mm was a pretty high-velocity gun, and therefore a decent AT weapon for its caliber. But it is still a small item, and basically obsolete by 1944. The same gun was used as a tank gun in some of the mid-war British tanks (e.g. later Valentine series).

Its penetrating power is roughly equivalent to that of a short 75mm (vanilla Sherman e.g.), or a bit less. But not close to that of a long 75mm (German Pz IV e.g.) or 76mm (upgunned Shermans, and Allied tank destroyers).

They can penetrate most German tanks from the side (not Tigers though), and the turret front of the Pz. IV. Against the front armor of most German tanks they do not have what it takes. In U.S. armor units, which had a number of these in each company in their TOE, many units just abandoned them and used the crews as added riflemen instead.

But infantry units don't have as much AT capability as armored units, and were generally thankful to have anything that could kill tanks at range, at any angle. It was still being used in the Bulge at the end of 1944, in infantry formations. Dedicated anti-tank formations had long since moved on to 76mm towed guns, or the SP armored tank destroyers like the M-10 (Wolverine in UK units).

On your wall question, be sure you have the scale set at "realistic", not one of the plus sizes. Otherwise your tank picture is just bigger than the game's internal engine has the tank, to make things easier to see. Hit ctrl-C to cycle through the scales, from real to +4 and back to real again.

[This message has been edited by jasoncawley@ameritech.net (edited 03-03-2001).]

[109 Gustav]

Jason, I'm going to have to disagree with your apprasial of the 57mm AT gun. It's my favorite AT weapon, and IMHO an excellent buy.

First of all, it's armor penetration is greater than the 75mm on the Sherman, 100mm to 97 at 100 yards. I've had my tigers taken out from the front by this gun, and side penetrations against tigers happen readily. Their penetration values fade rapidly as range increases, but these guns are not meant for long range, they are best off within 300m. Therefore, you are best off waiting patiently until the enemy tanks get in close. Wait for flank shots, and fire when only one tank at a time is in view. This way, they won't be able to spot your guns readily. When the tank is killed, hide the gun again and wait for another victim.

57s are death on anything smaller than a panther, due to their high ROF. Try using them when playing with Fionn's short 75 rule. With this rule, they can penetrate any tank frontally, and will be able to fire at least three shots for every two fired by a tank. This gives you an obvious advantage in combat, especially because you can usually hide the gun, then get the first shot off.

For best use of 57s, place one on each side of the map, and another, or a 76mm, in the center. Fire only when you get shots with a good chance of a kill, never before. If your opponent turns his armor to face one gun, the other one can take him with a flank shot. Also, be sure to keep your guns in CnC. They will have a better chance to hit, and won't abandon the gun the first time a tank fires back. Try to use HQ units with morale bonuses for this reason.

------------------

Well my skiff's a twenty dollar boat, And I hope to God she stays afloat.

But if somehow my skiff goes down, I'll freeze to death before I drown.

And pray my body will be found, Alaska salmon fishing, boys, Alaska salmon fishing.

The Last Defense- Mods, Scenarios, and more!

[chrisl]

Heh heh.

I totally agree with what Gustav said--and jdmorse can verify it. I just knocked out 7 of morses AFVs (3xPzIV, 2xPSW 234/1, 1xwirbelvind, 1xWespe) in one turn when he walked them into a wicked ambush of 6 pdr AT guns (3 of them) plus a couple of PIATs. Only one of the vehicles was killed by a PIAT. The Wespe was actually outside the kill zone, but there was a good LOS across the map.

And the 6 pdr looks like it can even knock out a KT at 200 m or so from the side, though if you're on an angle you'll just bounce shot after shot (from the same scenario).

------------------

"If you can taste the difference between caviar on a cracker and ketchup on a Kit-Kat while blindfolded, you have not had enough aquavit to be ready for lutefisk." (stolen from some web page about lutefisk)

[Olle Petersson]

Originally posted by 109 Gustav:

First of all, it's armor penetration is greater than the 75mm on the Sherman, ...

This is what's been written in all books on the subject I've read.

This is why the Brits kept some Churchills with 6pdr guns for D-day and later.

The 6pdr and the US 57mm aren't the same weapon, sort of, because there were a couple of different US 57mm guns. One version was equal to the British gun, but there were also others with different barrel length and such. There were probably a different carriage as well... (I'm going from some fuzzy couple of years old memory here.)

Cheers

Olle

[stevetherat]

The 6lb ATG is a little beauty.

Before D-Day, it only had APCBC shells, which was fine against the tanks of the desert war, but post Overlord had an increasing number of APDS (discarding sabot) shells in its inventory.

These shells are very high velocity and work by the outer casing falling away after firing, leaving a small, but very dense core to speed to the target.

In general, you could summarise the effectiveness of the British ATGs like so:

1. 2lb APCBC

2. 2lb with Long John squeeze velocity attachment

2. 6lb APCBC

3. 6lb APDS

3. 17lb APCBC

4. 17lb APDS

Obviously, the bigger guns excelled the smaller ones at longer ranges. I have no idea if this is modelled in CM, but in practice this was the case.

StR