Scipio Posted April 12, 2001 Share Posted April 12, 2001 I guess we had a similiar topic a few days ago...who cares? Situation: a have a squad in a wood, a few meters out of LOS is a enemy tank. To destroy the tank, my squad must move closer, fire, and run back into cover. But I can only order them to run closer - if I set a waypoint, they often turn around before they fire... Well, maybe it would be a good idea to have something like move-fight-move, or simply an assault command which work this way. [ 04-12-2001: Message edited by: Scipio ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMcGuire Posted April 13, 2001 Share Posted April 13, 2001 Exactly. I end up trying to guess how long it will take to run there so I can force enough pauses to coincide with the end of the turn. Now that's what I call gamey. Worse, sometimes I try a run/move combo to tweak their arrival time. Then on the next turn, I make them run back. What a pain. I know a lot of guys think this is too much micro-management, but without it, you end up with an awful lot of suicide missions. The only time you can rely on the AI to do the "right" thing after getting off a few shots is if the squad is mortally threatened, and by then it's either too late, or you're left with spinless mush. At the very least, I would like a "Seek cover" command, sort how the Rotate command is a "terminating" command. If there wasn't a need for it, people wouldn't talk about it. Kind of like tax cuts, heh heh... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Aitken Posted April 13, 2001 Share Posted April 13, 2001 Could you please explain the kind of scenarios where this would be useful, let alone sensible? For the tank example, why can't your squad just run out and kill the tank? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMcGuire Posted April 13, 2001 Share Posted April 13, 2001 Examples are easy. A tank is hammering a bunch of infantry who have basically no hope of killing the tank, beyond the lucky rare grenade hit. The tank has Dangerous Backup of some kind. My bazooka team can take out the tank, but they have to come out into the open and the backup is sure to wax them. This happened to me around 1PM today. If I could have set orders to pop around the hill, fire at the tank, then head back to cover, maybe my bazooka guys would have lived. Instead, they were machine-gunned about fifteen seconds after the panzer blew up. Fifteen seconds is a long time, a stupid amount of time, for a team to just stand there in the open and admire a burning Panzer while a machine gun bears down on them. I suppose I should point out the AI did make sure they started crawling after the backup opened fire, but by then it was too little too late. A simple Run command after the attack probably would have saved that unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodyBucket Posted April 13, 2001 Share Posted April 13, 2001 Hmmmm... I have had the same thing happen, and usually am just happy to get the damn tank. But to be fair, wouldn't the MG need to have a "Do nothing but cover the tank" command available? I don't think it is possible to model everything, and not everything that goes on in combat is logical or even comprehensible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMcGuire Posted April 13, 2001 Share Posted April 13, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BloodyBucket: I don't think it is possible to model everything<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I certainly agree with that, and I can see how this feature could be implemented and people still wouldn't be happy -- yeah we have a fire order but it doesn't fire the way I wanted it to... It does raise questions. Do you fire until the target is destroyed? Pop off one round? Empty your clip? Something more vague? (Fire until it "doesn't seem like a good idea"?) I know what you mean about being glad to have just killed a tank, but in the scenario I mentioned, I had one surviving bazooka team and either two or three more tanks to take out... I definitely didn't want to lose him, but I also hated letting roughly 30 men get chewed up in exchange. Scipio, now I'm curious -- did you have any specific way to implement a Fire command in mind? Just get off one shot, or what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scipio Posted April 13, 2001 Author Share Posted April 13, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JMcGuire: I certainly agree with that, and I can see how this feature could be implemented and people still wouldn't be happy -- yeah we have a fire order but it doesn't fire the way I wanted it to... It does raise questions. Do you fire until the target is destroyed? Pop off one round? Empty your clip? Something more vague? (Fire until it "doesn't seem like a good idea"?) I know what you mean about being glad to have just killed a tank, but in the scenario I mentioned, I had one surviving bazooka team and either two or three more tanks to take out... I definitely didn't want to lose him, but I also hated letting roughly 30 men get chewed up in exchange. Scipio, now I'm curious -- did you have any specific way to implement a Fire command in mind? Just get off one shot, or what?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well, my idea is : BTS creates an engine that makes always exectly what I want... When I think about it, I see the difficulty that rises with this question...REAL soldiers would know when it's time to move into cover, but we have no real soldiers. Mh, I should think about something new. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Aitken Posted April 14, 2001 Share Posted April 14, 2001 JMcGuire wrote: > The tank has Dangerous Backup of some kind. My bazooka team can take out the tank, but they have to come out into the open and the backup is sure to wax them. I actually knew exactly what you were thinking about, but I just wanted to be sure. What you are trying to do may be theoretically possible, but in Real Life™ it would be regarded as a suicide mission. What are you going to say, "hey, you with the bazooka, run out into the open on your own, take out that tank, and try not to get whacked by all those infantry and machineguns backing it up"? That just wouldn't happen. Support weapons are for infantry support – if you have no infantry, the support weapons are useless. You can't expect bazookas, mortars, machineguns and such to run around on their own and do a proper job – and while it may be possible in CM, it's what we call "gamey". Scipio wrote: > maybe it would be a good idea to have something like move-fight-move As you are realising, this is totally impractical. It is your job to get your men into a position from which they can fight. Once engaged it is up to them. Micromanagement such as ordering troops exactly what to fire at, with what ordinance and at what moment, is totally outwith the scope of the game. It is not your job, it is theirs. The kind of situation where you are relying totally on chance and luck to achieve a kill is where you ought to consider calling a ceasefire. It depends what you play for – to win, or to enjoy managing Second World War operations – but you should be intuitively aware at what point things are turning against you, and when you should think twice about getting your men killed on the offchance of succeeding. Remember that in Real Life™ you would always start to have second thoughts sooner than in CM, because in reality "winning" is not "winning" unless there is a clear margin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMcGuire Posted April 14, 2001 Share Posted April 14, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by David Aitken: Support weapons are for infantry support – if you have no infantry, the support weapons are useless. You can't expect bazookas, mortars, machineguns and such to run around on their own and do a proper job – and while it may be possible in CM, it's what we call "gamey". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Ok, so change the menu option to "Be A Hero". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodyBucket Posted April 14, 2001 Share Posted April 14, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Ok, so change the menu option to "Be A Hero".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> There have been war games that have had this feature. I guess it is kind of in CM in the form of fanatic units, although the ability to ignore morale effects is not quite the same. It seems to happen randomly all the same, just read the "hero's corner" at CMHQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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