Trigger happy hull gunner (also co-axial MG) spooking the target

[Guest tero]

An irritating occurance. My tank (KT as it happens but I have seen it regularly with German tanks at least) is sitting in a patch of trees unbuttoned with no special (stealth) orders waiting for targets to appear. Sure enough a light tank appears into LOS heading across a field. The target is acquired but before the main gun has the opportunity to engage the MG starts up spooking the target into retreating out of LOS. The game is a QB against AI.

A few questions that spring to mind:

Does the cross section targeting give an "advantage" to smaller diameter weapons when it comes to hit propability making them prone to open up prematurely even if they are secondary weapons in a vehicle and have absolutely no chance of penetrating ?

How did the light tank know it was a tank an not just a light MG on a bipod ? Is there some element in the spotting or the targeting (in the cross section targeting bit) algorithm that makes the terrain in which the vehicle is in lose its meaning once the spotting/targeting has started ? Did the trees suddenly turn transparent ?

[Guest Rob/1]

The idea behind that is to prevent the enemy from seeing you. Its like this I don't want that light tank to see anything make it button up and then chace it down ,because once the tank buttons up it is harder to see thing then upbuttoned as you mite know.Did the light tank button up? Or was it already if it wasn't it most likly sow your tank. Its the hole LOS thing.

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[This message has been edited by Rob/1 (edited 01-02-2001).]

[Guest Mirage2k]

A short burst from the machine gun was often used by armored vehicles to take better aim before the main gun was fired. That's probably what happened to you. Why the targeted vehicle backed off, I'm not sure. A heavier machine gun on a vehicle probably has different qualities than a light MG that are perceived by the targeted unit. But that's just a guess.

-Andrew

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"No, it's not that kind of relationship. We're just friends. We are together all the time, but I never touch her porcelain skin, her soft, red lips, like rose petals from the emperor's bathwater! Bathwater, I tell you, bathwateeeeeeer!"

[Forever Babra]

Mirage2K is quite right. In the good ol' days of glass optics a burst was used to acquire the target.

While I don't believe CM models it, any tank receiving machine gun fire should be taking evasive action immediately. My guess, however, is that the KT was sighted by the target, triggering the retreat.

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Is "patheti-sad" a word?

[Thermopylae]

Ok, well having looked at this I had a little problem with this too, and this one is completely inexplicable with the burst aim logic.

A QB againts an opponent (very small probe) with comp picked forces. It happens the only thing of mine that has a main gun on it is a priest. Not ideal, but I eevvveeerrr soooo sloooowwwwlllly sneak it around my enemies flank to crack his armor. Having moved into a good position on a unsuspecting light tank/ AC (my opponent says he didn't see the preist until it fired) I give it orders to bring its front around. Well the very first seconds of the turn the MG gunner rakes the turreted tank, WHILE the priest is still pointing the other way. So while I'm doing my best civil war commander impression "turn the guns around" the tank swings its turret and blows the priest into oblivion before the gun is even halfway swung...I think this would point to a buggy issue.

[Banshee]

Forgive me for not remembering the name (I will look it up and post later) but a fairly modern (late 80's) light anti-tank (RPG type) weapon used a sighting mechanism with a 9mm pistol which was ballistically matched to the AT round, so you could fire a couple of bullets (I believe it held 6) and where the bullets hits the round would hit.

My point being that the "ranging by fire" is still alive and well.

(Forgive my lack of details im at work, as soon as I get home I'll post the exact name and manufacturer).

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Veni, vidi, panzerschrecki

[Guest tero]

I am well aware of ranging fire. And I would say it is OK. But prolonged fire from the hull MG before the main gun has engaged the unsuspecting target ? Never. And the very first burst from the co-axial should be followed by the main gun round within seconds (depending on crew proficiency).

Now it seems the MG's start up even before the main gun is lined up and a round is chambered.

As for the light tank reversing away. It started to reverse only after the MG's had fired, not before. That would suggest that the MG's tipped the position off. But how the hell did it make the instantaneous snap decision it was a tank that was firing ? One possible answer is the terrain turned transparent the minute the spotting algoritm stepped in with the cross section targeting possibly kicking in as well when the AI crew makes the decision wether or not to engage the target.

Something like this:

- What is that target I spot yonder ?

- It is a MG firing at us.

- Targeting (with HE).

- Holy ****, it is HUGE. Back off, it is a tank !!!

[This message has been edited by tero (edited 01-03-2001).]

[Guest Mirage2k]

Well, for one thing, scattered trees do not provide all that much concealment, especially for something as big as a tank. To quote the CM manual, scattered trees are

"single trees with little or no brush standing in loose groups together or along a road. Orchards fall into this terrain type as well. They provide only light cover and concealment, but are certainly better than open ground. Do not expect miracles, especially in winter when even a single squad has trouble hiding scattered trees."

From that description, I would think that if the crew of a vehicle heard MG fire aimed at them, and quickly turned their heads toward the source of the fire, they would spot a tank almost immediately.

As for the hull MG firing? I have no idea. What was the crew's experience rating?

-Andrew

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"No, it's not that kind of relationship. We're just friends. We are together all the time, but I never touch her porcelain skin, her soft, red lips, like rose petals from the emperor's bathwater! Bathwater, I tell you, bathwateeeeeeer!"

[Forever Babra]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tero:

Now it seems the MG's start up even before the main gun is lined up and a round is chambered.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Like I said, I don't believe CM models mg fire for target acquisition.

[Guest Mikey D]

It sure appears like CM models mgs for target acquisition to me. A target gets acquired, the cannon fires... round falls short. A quick 3-round burst from the coax aimed higher this time, bulllets heard plinking off the target's armor, then BAM! The second round scores! If it ain't modelled for ranging it sure is a big coincidence.

[Guest tero]

>Well, for one thing, scattered trees do not provide all that much concealment, especially for something as big as a tank.

To quote the CM manual.....

Well, the woods did provide enough concealment so the light tank did venture into the open in the first place.

>From that description, I would think that if the crew of a vehicle heard MG fire aimed at them, and quickly turned their heads toward the source of the fire, they would spot a tank almost immediately.

That is feasible. Only after that frelling hull MG tipped the position off did it back off. Had it not fired prematurely.........

As for almost immediately spotting the firer, I'd expect they were scanning area already. I just wonder had they back off instantaneously if the firer had been a light MG team and not a tank.

>As for the hull MG firing? I have no idea. What was the crew's experience rating?

Elite. What else can you have with a KT ?