PigIron Posted February 22, 2000 Share Posted February 22, 2000 Hello everyone, first-time writer, long-time reader. I was curious, in Saving Private Ryan there was a "20 mil(?)" machine gun that the Germans were rolling around at the end of the movie. It really seemed to tear up the infantry. I had never heard, read, nor seen any of those weapons (non-AT) before. I guess I was just curious about the presence of these "mobile" heavy automatic weapons in CM (other than HMG infantry). I did a search on 20 mil on the forum and came up with nothing but AA and aircraft weaponry. In the movie, it did not seem as though that gun would have been used in a anti-air role. I could be wrong. Any info on those weapons would be great. I'd also like to take this time to give the BTS team mad props for making such a well-honed game. I stumbled on this game in my desperate search for a realistic 3D game that model WW2 battles better than the Close Combat games. (I just loved finding out that I placed my anti-tanks guns in the bottom of a ditch AFTER the battle commenced due to lack of elevation capabilities) . BTS must have read my mind. From what I can see in the demo, this is the best game in the business. P.S. Thanks for keeping us updated Steve, it is yet another reason why your team is so great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted February 22, 2000 Share Posted February 22, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PigIron: Hello everyone, first-time writer, long-time reader. I was curious, in Saving Private Ryan there was a "20 mil(?)" machine gun that the Germans were rolling around at the end of the movie. It really seemed to tear up the infantry. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I believe that was a 20mm twin AA gun used against ground targets. In the German Luftwaffe I was trained on the successor of this gun. It fires HE/Incendiary 20mm rounds at a very high ROF/min which I can not remember. The rounds detonate 1,600m off the barrel unless they hit something first (oops). We were told that they would not do anything to a Mi24-Hind, but that using them against infantry or anything soft-skinned was wholesale slaughter of the innocent. Londoners, you can see exactly the model I was trained on in the Imperial War Museum, the British captured one on the Falklands. I got some curious looks when I started explaing the use in great detail to some friends ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted February 22, 2000 Share Posted February 22, 2000 What you saw was a mobile mounting of a 20mm cannon. It's a funky little system actually which is very useful for providing light AAA fire to deter FB runs as well as chewing up HTs and keeping Allied infantry pinned hundreds of metres from your position... Best possible usage in CM (hidden in woods on a hill with roughly 800 metres of open terrain between it and an Allied infantry company supported ONLY by HTs). Put down 4 of these things and you can pin the Allied infantry company and destroy HTs for up to 15 mins before running out of ammo (VERY good for securing a flank and allowing you to remove an infantry company from the line and create a mobile reserve). Just hope the Amis don't have tanks or arty. Anyways... Here's a little history on the 2cm FlaK 30 ( one of the more common variants and I believe the one intended to be shown in SPR). 2cm Flak 30 Designation: 2cm Flak 30 Overall Length: 2.3 metres Weight in Action: 463 Kg. Calibre: 20mm Barrel Length: 1.1 metres ( 2cm L/55) Muzzle Velocity: 900 m/s HE, 800 m/s PzGr39, 992 m/s Pzgr40 Effective Ceiling: 2,200 metres Horizontal Range: 2,700 metres Elevation: -12 to +90 degrees Traverse: 360 degrees. Rate of Fire: Cyclic: 280 rpm, Practical: 120 rpm. Projectile Weight: 0.3 Kg HE. Sighting Systems: Flakvisier 35 Linealvisier 21 Schwerebekreisvisier 30/38 Immediately following the rise of the NSDAP to power in 1933, German re-armament was given precedent and the establishment of a Flak defence for naval and ground forces was given a high priority, especially with Germany’s realisation of the true value of air power. The Solothurn-designed and produced MK-ST-5 was adopted for service by the Kriegsmarine in 1934 and the Luftwaffe in 1935. When production was moved to Germany later in the thirties the Solothurn-derived name was dropped and the gun was given its true German designation, namely the 2cm Flak 30. The 2cm Flak 30 was a good gun but was marred by certain design errors and misappreciations of what would be required of future low-level Flak defences. The essence of low-level Flak defence is to fill the air with a large number of shells in as short a time as possible, each of which standing a decent chance of hitting and damaging the airplane, and it is exactly here that the four main problems of the Flak 30 manifested themselves. 1. The gun proved prone to feeding jams which often meant that fleeting targets simply were not engaged as a frantic crew attempted to clear a jam which occurred whilst firing at a previous target. 2. The cyclic rate of fire was a theoretical 280 rounds per minute, although the practical rate was generally accepted to be more akin to 120 rounds per minute. This simply did not put enough bullets into the air to ensure that a goodly number would hit a fast, low-level target. 3. Those bullets which were fired had a poor ballistic performance and a low high-explosive warhead yield and consequently did little damage even if they did hit the target. 4. Overcomplexity of the fire control system. Early models of the 2cm Flak 30 contained a Zeiss clockwork predictor sight which required constant accurate range input from another crewmember using a portable rangefinder for any reasonable accuracy to be attained. Obviously when firing at a fast-moving, low-level ground-attack aircraft, the sheer amount of time required to obtain an accurate range to target using a portable range-finder and then dialing it into the predictor sight meant that by the time the range was entered the target had moved so much that the range was now inaccurate. Most crews therefore dispensed with such fanciful range re-settings in combat and simply fired by eye. This fact was recognised by the high command in later versions of the 2cm Flak 30, where only the simplest cartwheel sights were utilised with fire corrections being performed by the gunner, assisted by the observation of tracer. The 2cm Flak 30 is recoil-operated, fed by a 20-round magazine and can be fired in either full automatic or semiautomatic modes. The muzzle brake of the 2cm Flak 30 incorporated a flash suppressor which helped prevent aircraft from locating the firing positions of 2cm Flak 30s. The carriage consists of an undercarriage, braced by a tripod base, and a top carriage on ball bearings which ensures 360 degree traverse. It has a five man crew but seating is only provided for the gunner who sits directly behind the cannon itself. The 2cm Flak 30 is provided with HE, Panzergranate 39 and Panzergranate 40 ammunition and is quite capable of destroying any vehicle lighter than a tank in the ground support role and has often been used in the anti-personnel role in place of heavy machineguns with devastating results for those who oppose it. Hope you find it useful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gen. Sosaboski Posted February 22, 2000 Share Posted February 22, 2000 Just makes you want to not face Fionn as the Germans, doesn't it? He knows so much (Nice to see, though!) Fionn, I'm still up for PBEM when I get the game as Polish Airborne! ------------------ Sosabowski, 1st Pol. Abn. Yes, I know my name is spelled wrong as a member! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted February 22, 2000 Share Posted February 22, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gen. Sosaboski: Just makes you want to not face Fionn as the Germans, doesn't it? He knows so much (Nice to see, though!) Fionn, I'm still up for PBEM when I get the game as Polish Airborne! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yeah, why do I bother with (sort of) first-hand knowledge? But at least I have the satisfaction of having it seen in action Gen. Sosaboski - how about a PBEM when CM goes Gold. Try to take revenge on me for not bothering to spell your name in one of my first posts ------------------ Andreas [This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 02-22-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gen. Sosaboski Posted February 22, 2000 Share Posted February 22, 2000 Fine by me Germanboy, just be prepared to get beat...badly (not for misspelling my name, though). ------------------ Sosabowski, 1st Pol. Abn. Yes, I know my name is spelled wrong as a member! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PigIron Posted February 22, 2000 Author Share Posted February 22, 2000 Thanks to Fion and Germanboy for the info. I'm just another WW2 buff who just eats this stuff for breakfast. On that fateful day, when the heavens open up and a copy of CM is delivered from on high to my doorstep on angels' wings....(wait, I need a moment, sniff), I will be glad for PBEM with you guys. I will be that private who runs screaming like a little girl from the mere sight of your Tigers. Until next time, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted February 22, 2000 Share Posted February 22, 2000 You're on... Just keep the Jabos grounded Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted February 22, 2000 Share Posted February 22, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PigIron: I will be that private who runs screaming like a little girl from the mere sight of your Tigers. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Tanks, who needs tanks anyway? I keep losing mine so fast in PBEMs, I could as well not have any IMHO, infantry is the queen o the battlefield, if only b/c I am too stupid to handle tanks! ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gen. Sosaboski Posted February 23, 2000 Share Posted February 23, 2000 PigIron, don't worry we'll just stick to Brens and Stens, they'll be enough . Oh, Fionn we didn't have any air support at Driel/Arnhem/Oosterbeek, so I don't care about Jabos. What I do care about is how fast my slow English 30th Corps comes up to support my lone brigade of paratroops.No Tigers or KingTigers, Fionn, anything else is fair game-for now. ------------------ Sosabowski, 1st Pol. Abn. Yes, I know my name is spelled wrong as a member! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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