harley desrosiers Posted March 3, 2000 Share Posted March 3, 2000 Goodday Steve, Charles. I came to mind after enjoying MadMatt's POTD, AT gun and crew in winter. That those boys had no winter fortifications for their protection or winter obstacle to slow down or halt that tank column. All Army's that fight in winter have simple but effective method's to slow down or even stop tanks in their tracks so to speak. ever seen the what happens to tanks on ice. Turning a small strech of road into a sheet of ice stop's them dead amazing what some frozen water can do. And using piled snow to form a kind of reverse trench that done right can stop a 50cal. I don't know about all army's but those above the 49th have all four season's to use to their advantage. Just a thought for CM2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted March 3, 2000 Share Posted March 3, 2000 It all depends on what battle is being simulated. CM does have the elements you speak of (effectively at the least), but they shouldn't always be made available. So this is a scenario design decision. If the scenario is meant to simulate a prepared position, then there are plenty of things to give the defender to make the attacker's life Hell The fighting along the western borders of Germany was not always done in fixed, prepared positions. Especially at CM's scale where forces are pretty small in the big picture. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tss Posted March 5, 2000 Share Posted March 5, 2000 All Army's that fight in winter have simple but effective method's to slow down or even stop tanks in their tracks so to speak. ever seen the what happens to tanks on ice. Turning a small strech of road into a sheet of ice stop's them dead amazing what some frozen water can do. Actually, tanks can maneuver pretty well on ice. They are generally heavy enough that their tracks bite deep in the ice (much like winter tires on cars). Of course, they can't do quick turns but otherwise ice doesn't hinder tanks at all. I'd guess that if you were lucky the first tank would drive too fast to the ice and crash on some obstacle hard enough to stop it for a while or expose its flanks to an AT gun but the next tank would slow down. In addition, the trap would be effective only until the next snowfall. Another problem is that unfrozen water may be difficult to get during winter. If there are no lakes near, you have to melt it from snow and it takes time and consumes firewood. Actually, ice was used to constructs winter roads. At least Finns and Soviets constructed ice roads, I don't know about other nationalities. The ice on a lake is usually strong enough to carry a man after a couple of day's freezing weather, but it may take weeks before it is strong enough to carry cars or guns. The solution is to cover the ice with tree branches and pour water on it. When the water freezes, the combination of ice and wood can carry much higher loads than the ice in itself. Icy water is a much better deterrent. By blasting a conveniently sited dam one could delay the enemy's advance by a couple of days until the water froze, since in winter it's practically impossible to cross open water. And using piled snow to form a kind of reverse trench that done right can stop a 50cal. Well, yes and no. I don't remember now how much packed snow you need to stop a rifle bullet but I think it is a couple of meters. A 50cal bullet would need even more. Constructing a snow wall this thick takes time and probably disturbes the snow so much that it will be difficult (but not impossible) to camouflage well. Also, a snow wall doesn't stop HE shells. I personally think that you would spend the time better by using a small demolition charge to soften the ground (to break the frozen earth) and digging a foxhole. - Tommi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter Posted March 6, 2000 Share Posted March 6, 2000 That's interesting about the ice roads. I remember some footage shot near Bastogne showing one of Patton's Shermans sliding downhill on the ice....troops diving into the ditches to avoid being crushed, etc. Guess not everyone had the right kind of treads for winter travel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tss Posted March 6, 2000 Share Posted March 6, 2000 I remember some footage shot near Bastogne showing one of Patton's Shermans sliding downhill on the ice.... OK, I forgot about hills when I wrote my reply above. Yes, hills are a different beast altogether and an icy slope may be very difficult for tanks as there's nothing a tank driver can do to stop the vehicle when "Mother Gravity" takes a good hold of it. However, this may happen even without ice if the surface is sufficiently loose. On flat ground the driver only has to press down clutch and the tank stops after some (maybe some dozens of) meters. Then he can start of slowly and the tracks bite well in ice. - Tommi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted March 6, 2000 Share Posted March 6, 2000 Correct. The generally good surface area and heavy weight makes it easy to stop a tank on flat ice if the driver is going slowly in the lowest gear range. Fast is another story But icy slopes are a whole 'nuther thing! In my tank driver's book it shows how to get up such a slope. Let me put it this way... it isn't something that can be done in combat conditions CM doesn't simulate ice per se as it is something that is not likely to be all over the place. Such selective problems are hard for us to simulate realistically. I also have never heard of troops purposefully icing over hills and such. Probably happened once or twice (everything seems to have done that in WWII ) but it certainly wasn't even remotely common. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Zulu1 Posted March 6, 2000 Share Posted March 6, 2000 Ice roads are quite common in Northern Canada. Its about the only way to get heavy supplies and equipment to remote settlements. It's amazing and a little scary to see a big semi trailer driving across the lake. The speed is limited by the ice wave formed in front of the truck moving across the lake. The trucks and trailers weigh some 30 - 40 tons but that is distributed over a bigger area than a tank, but even so, if the ice is thick enough it could support a tank (but I wouldn't want to be driving it ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harley desrosiers Posted March 7, 2000 Author Share Posted March 7, 2000 Thanks for the help. During the time I was in the Armored corps we always had winter training refreshes on how to defend against an advancing army (those old 16mm traing films) showing how to use a water trailer to ice a road on a upward slope (forgot to mention the slope). How to mine a frozen lake to cut off a line of retreat. And how to make snow shelters to stay warm. Also to have two or more timbers with your tank to place under the tracks to help you up a ice slope. One other thing steve will the cold of winter effect the men and equipment in any way. vechial brakedown, fire power, movement (men running in deep snow with the extra bulk of winter equipment and such) Will ordance in general be more likley to fail? Winter is very hard on all things Military. thanks in advance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted March 7, 2000 Share Posted March 7, 2000 Having just had my 1944 M29C Weasel break down two weeks ago 7 miles from the start of the 6 mile road to "civilization", I can safely say I know a thing or two about vehicle reliability Funny thing was all the 55 year old parts did just fine, but an 8 month old brand new U Joint turned out to be defective and BAM! Good thinking and good luck saved the day and we all made it out of there in one piece. We made the decision to not have vehicles breakdown mid game, no matter what the weather. Not totally realistic, but not totally unrealistic either. We figure that broken down vehicles were more than likely to not have made it to the battlefield in the first place. So a large percentage of breakdowns (and there were lots of them in all seasons) are not really relevant. Mid battle breakdowns certainly did happen, but they weren't all that common. And since there are about 101 other things likely to befall your vehicles prior to such an unlucky event... the number of breakdowns mid battle in CM would be very few. The problem is that no two vehicles are alike in terms of reliability. We felt to have a realistic and fair system we would somehow need to qualify the chance of a breakdown for each and every vehicle. This is not easy to do and we felt our time was better spent doing other things. Weather does effect troops in terms of speed and physical readiness. Vehicles are also hit with a number of weather related problems, such as bogging down and slower movement. As for the effects of winter cold go, the winter in Western Europe is fairly mild. All military gear for both Axis and Allies alike was designed to withstand that sort of winter (within reason of course). What we will most likely have to do something different for CM2 when we move into the Soviet Union. 1941's winter caused a host of problems that didn't happen on the Western Front in 1944. But that is for us to muck around with later Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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