Miniature Wargaming.....Dead?

[The Oak]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike the bike:

So if you miss historical gaming and want to get plenty of opposition at regular meetings, I suggest you 'Merkins all emigrate!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

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.....I would, but gun owners have no rights in the "Commonwealth." In regards to the CM engine: The American Civil War (among others) would be nice done up CM style.....perhaps someday.

[dalem]

1. ianc - thanks for the compliment. I really enjoyed painting the little buggers.

2. All- I think that it is a mistake to assume that just because CM is a wonderful game (and it is) that hits much of the same niche that tabletop gaming occupies, that now that niche is 'dead' or 'dying'.

Miniature wargaming may indeed be dead or dying, but much as the dinosaurs were already well on their way to extinction when a (probable) comet landed on their heads, It is doubtful that CM or any specific computer game will be responsible for killing tabletop gaming. Instead, they will alter it.

Original historical tabletop games tended to be slow and methodical - that tends to please the grog-guys who wrote the rules and their buddies and converts that play them. As systems evolve, they generally try to slim down and speed up, and as the hobby has evolved, it has followed that trend as well (Games Workshop, anyone?). So the hobby had to change anyway, and certainly the games that require 100s of stands and 50 charts and 3 days to play one battle will fall to the wayside as leaner and meaner sytems evolve.

In my opinion, computer games will help the hobby streamline (and mainstream). It will be different ten years from now, but not dead.

-dale

[This message has been edited by dalem (edited 11-16-2000).]

[This message has been edited by dalem (edited 11-16-2000).]

[Trooper]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Oak:

I think miniature wargaming is a lot more popular over in the UK. Didn't some guy in the UK even re-create Kursk using "Spearhead" and micro armor last year (a week long event)?

BTW: Is anyone from Germany on this site? If so, is it true your country is going to allow women in combat positions? Are we going to finally see real "pink panzers?" (I know pink was the piping color for the panzer arm).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://www.kathiescomics.co.uk/kwh_updates.html has the Kursk 2000 reports. I very seriously considered attending. Even bought the rules just for the event. There's another one for this year I believe. (Just go to kathiescomics.co.uk)

Ireland has women in all combat positions that I'm aware of (Except SF, but I'm not sure if it's policy, or the way it just worked out). We seem to be doing OK.

NTM

[Netwatcher]

<center>Greetings from the American Heartland!</center>

Is table top miniature gaming dead?</p>

Like many of the people who have posted here I too have a large collection of minis gathering dust on shelves and in boxes. I was brought into the fold with a desert micro Armour scenario 16 years ago. Despite the fact that the minis have not been used in years, I will hold onto them and doubt the genre is dead. The very best thing about table top gaming is dealing with the  the strange assortment of people you get whenever you have a large multi-player battle. The humor and camaraderie that comes from having a bunch of people with shared hobbies in one place doing what they love is simply too good to give up. Getting younger players, or players unfamiliar with war gaming, and putting them in charge of a set of troops is something that always fascinates me, what will they do? How will they react when half the troops under their command rout? Or break thru enemy lines? Not that I mind older, experienced players mind you, but players familiar with the rules and war games in general tend to be more deliberate with their playing (and consequently smash me to bits, hey I never said I was any GOOD at war gaming).</p>

At the same time this form of gaming is becoming increasingly difficult to

arrange, what with jobs and families to take care of. This is a point well taken

for a game like CM, which allow you to use email and take your turns when you have a snatch of time. My opinion is that computers as facilitators will become even more popular in the war gaming arena, and programs with scenario/troop editors and multiplayer ability will overtake those that are solely reliant on published scenarios to provide the end users joy. </p>

I still table top game monthly (with smaller, die cut counter games) and I have other PC games as well, but none come close to the pleasure CM has given me since I bought it. I look forward to those emails, wondering every single time I receive a move, "Did my flank hold? Did my Nashorn get blown up? (AGAIN!?), Did my troops carry out their orders?". It is very much like Christmas actually. It is a wonderful game and I look forward to many cold nights huddled around my computer.</p>

[This message has been edited by Netwatcher (edited 11-16-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Netwatcher (edited 11-16-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Netwatcher (edited 11-16-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Netwatcher (edited 11-16-2000).]

[The Oak]

Originally posted by dalem:

Original historical tabletop games tended to be slow and methodical - that tends to please the grog-guys who wrote the rules and their buddies and converts that play them. As systems evolve, they generally try to slim down and speed up, and as the hobby has evolved, it has followed that trend as well (Games Workshop, anyone?). So the hobby had to change anyway, and certainly the games that require 100s of stands and 50 charts and 3 days to play one battle will fall to the wayside as leaner and meaner sytems evolve.

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Which brings up the debate: Speed and simplicity vs. realism and complexity. It's a fine balance that many table top games never achieve. I tested countless rule systems, only to find out that they require 6-8 hours to conclude a BN-RGT size micro armor engagement (which turns off new gamers). On the other side of the coin I have tried rule systems that are so simple that the M1 is no better than a T-72 at 2,000M (generic heavy tank values). The benefit of a computer is that it can take countless calculations into consideration and determine combat results in a fraction of the time: and there is no squabbling! For my wargames conducted with inexperienced players, I've taken to using a modified Panzerblitz type system (1:5 scale) with attack and defense factors. It makes the game more manageable and enjoyable for new players.

[dalem]

Oak-

I agree with your points, but there are systems out there, homegrown and commercial, that meet the needs of a relatively fast, relatively accurate, and playable tabletop game.

But as someone else already pointed out, there are no computer games out there which give you the wealth of variety that miniatures currently offer - different periods, scales, numbers of players, etc. And you can mix & match: one of the guys in our group ran his annual (late) Halloween game last week and we had a German platoon and a Russian platoon meeting in a Romanian village that was strangely untouched by WWII so far. And it was dusk. And there was a castle.

It wasn't the killer bunnies or the marching skeletons or the zombie Russian troopers that bummed us out. It was that darned vampire....

Miniatures will be around for a long time.

-dale