Anyone read a book called "Das Reich"

[Guest Rommel22]

It's a great book I just got it. It has actually entries by soldiers who served in the division. The author James Lucas, went to the DR division reunion. Thats where he met the soldiers and he intervied them. It's a great book I highly recomend it.

The book also has some good tacticts written by the soldiers. Some engagments by the division are chilling and in france the division lost many troops.

Well just get the book and read it!!!

------------------

Russian tactics as said by von Mellenthin "Bridge heads everywhere"

[Henri]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rommel22:

It's a great book I just got it. It has actually entries by soldiers who served in the division. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You should also read the book "Das Reich" by Max Hastings for a bit of balance (Das Reich was the 2nd SS Panzer Division). That book concentrates on the infamous atrocities committed by the Division as they headed fromthe South of France towards the beaches.

As an aside, the Das Reich commander who ordered teh hanging of 75 hostages in retribution for resistance attacks went back to the village after the war, and was surprised to find that the French people of the village were mad at him . He was lucky they didn't lynch him from the nearest lampost...

Henri

[Guest SS Peiper]

I have the book by James Lucas and I have to agree with Rommel22, very good book.

SS Peiper

[Airborne]

I have it too. Pretty good but somewhat dry.

Lucas definately shies away from the negative/atrocities of the SS.

------------------

Land Soft--Kill Quiet

[Guest Rommel22]

Henri

Why do you have to ruin it. Don't blame it on the whole division. just becuase one guy does it doesn't the whole country is the same.

Do you know the commanders name that order those hangings??? if they did lynch him, they would be no better than he was.

I am nor really interested in reading about the attrocities commited. I am very intersted in German military history. I acknowladge the attrocities and camps, but all I care about is the military aspect of the whole war. so don't include the attrocitie issue.

Oh did you also know the Americans commited attrocities against the Germans in the Ardenn in 44. I know some German soldiers killed some Americans too, but the Amis killed about 50 German prisoners. And no they took no part in the killing of the Amis before.

Oh how about 500k of Jap civilians, probably more. Oh did you know the Amis killed more French civilians by bombing the place in 43-44 than the Germans through out the entire war. How about concentration camp in the U.S. where the Japs were sent too. ( I know not killed but it's just as bad) How about segregation of whites and blacks in the U.S. and so on. I could go on, but since I don't want hear any of this. I'll stop. So don't tell me crap like the Germans were the killers and all are murders.

Ok That's enough, that got it out of my system.

------------------

Russian tactics as said by von Mellenthin "Bridge heads everywhere"

[This message has been edited by Rommel22 (edited 07-25-2000).]

[RobVarak]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rommel22:

Henri

Oh did you also know the Americans commited attrocities against the Germans in the Ardenn in 44. I know some German soldiers killed some Americans too, but the Amis killed about 50 German prisoners. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL!!!!!!!

"Killed some Americans too"????

First, spell Ardennes properly.

Then read a real book on the battle (I'd recommend A TIME FOR TRUMPETS).

Finally, trying to equate the systematic atrocities committed over a wide period of time and place by the SS with the relatively few (but in no way excusable) wrongs committed by the Allies is just plain silly.

I find it your ability to distinguish between the atrocities and "military history" astonishing. They may not interest you, but unfortunately they were an undeniable part of the military history of the war.

------------------

Rob Varak

Editor

Site on Sound: The Web's Premier Site For Musical Discussion

www.siteonsound.com

[Los]

I thought the comparison of the death camps in Germany to the Japanese camps in the US being "just as bad" kind of rich too.

Los

[Guest Germanboy]

Rommel22 - that sort of statement explains why you machinegun your POWs in CM, I guess. BTW, I had a good laugh at your statement that Henri 'ruined it'. Sounds like he took your favourite toy from you...

Enough said.

------------------

Andreas

[Airborne]

Another good book to check out is Steel Inferno (I think). Its about the SS in Normandy. Sorry, don't remember the author.

------Chris

------------------

Land Soft--Kill Quiet

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Airborne:

Another good book to check out is Steel Inferno (I think). Its about the SS in Normandy. Sorry, don't remember the author.

------Chris

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Michael Reynolds, and there is a good discussion of the issue of POW treatment in there. Does not cover 2nd SS though, he focusses on 1st SS LSSAH and 12th SS HJ.

------------------

Andreas

[Henri]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rommel22:

Henri

Why do you have to ruin it. Don't blame it on the whole division. just becuase one guy does it doesn't the whole country is the same.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I didn't say that

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Do you know the commanders name that order those hangings???<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, but if you really want to know, I have the book at home...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I am nor really interested in reading about the attrocities commited. I am very intersted in German military history. I acknowladge the attrocities and camps, but all I care about is the military aspect of the whole war. so don't include the attrocitie issue.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I respect your opinion, but you can't tell me what to write. My own opinion is that one must keep the SS atrocities in mind when playing those games, to avoid the danger of "SS worship" that is perhaps too prevalent in some quarters.I usually prefer to play the Germans myself, because they were in general better soldiers, but I am no collector of Nazi insignia

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I know some German soldiers killed some Americans too, but the Amis killed about 50 German prisoners. And no they took no part in the killing of the Amis before.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Over 40 1st SS Panzer Corps officers were condemned to death for war crimes, including Joachem Peiper for the Malmedy massacre of over 80 US soldiers(only two death sentences were carried out). Kurt "Panzermeyer" Meyer was condemned to death by a Canadian military court after the war for ordering the shooting of over 20 Canadian prisoners in Normandy. Eisenhower changed his sentence to life imprisonment (Germany was needed for the cold war), and Meyer was realeased from Dorchester prison in New Brunswick Canada after serving about ten years. He remained a dedicated Nazi and SS until his death, to the dismay of his son.Meyer was one of the best German Panzer commanders, but one interested in WW2 should be aware of his failings as a man.

To claim that war crimes carried out by the Waffen SS was a rare occurence is ludicrous; and yes, not ALL Waffen SS soldiers committed war crimes.I hope that your grandfather was one of the innocent ones who onlyu did his duty.

Henri

[This message has been edited by Henri (edited 07-26-2000).]

[Guest Rommel22]

Ok,

I said I acknoladge the fact that attrocities were commited by the Germans. But most of you stay away from the fact that Americans and Brits killed Japs and Germans. They were no better than the Germans. Bombing Berlin for no reason other than kill people and cause terror. What the hell is that, The allies said how evil the Germans were trying to bomb citites. Well isn't that hypocritical, to me it is.

Oh and my Grnadpa did serve for the Germans when he was 17. He only defended Berlin but was with the army since 44. He mentioned being in poland 44. He himself dipised hitler, so he wasn't a nazi. He was just protectiing his homeland.

I don't collect any nazi regallia or any flags and crap. All I have is books, although all Germans aspect of the war.

Andreas, me machie gunning prisoners was a joke. Like someone said, it's a game and a forum I can post whatever I want. But sorry I wasn't clear. I don't machine gun my prisoners. I did once becuse the guy started running and the capture icon wasn't on him so my gunner killed him.

How about those camps in US for the Japs. Isn't that wrong??? Segregation in the US. the US at the time of wwII wasn't any better than the Germans were. You still got the kkk since the greaking civil war!!!

So what is the commanders name, I really like to now. Maybe he is mentioned in my book.

And this book is great!!!

------------------

Russian tactics as said by von Mellenthin "Bridge heads everywhere"

[speedy24]

One word...spellcheck. (or is that two?)

[Guest Germanboy]

Henri, I think Panzermeyer was not hanged b/c his trial was fundamentally flawed, according to Reynolds, IIRC. The Canadian chief prosecutor was a Lt.Col. who commanded one of the units whose men were shot as POWs by 12th SS during Normandy. That is anathema to any court rules in a democracy and should not have happened. Whether Meyer was close to the spot where it happened and did indeed give the order is still unclear, I think.

Rommel22 - glad we cleared that one up. And you are right, you can post whatever you like, but people will respond to it in the way they see fit. It works both ways.

------------------

Andreas

[Henri]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rommel22:

So what is the commanders name, I really like to now. Maybe he is mentioned in my book.

And this book is great!!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Heinz Lammerding was the Das Reich commander at the time and he gave the orders for the massacre. He must surely be mentioned in your book since he commanded the division 1n 1943-44.

A good site for a description and sicussion of the Oradour massacre by Das REich is the web site <http://www.ualberta.ca/~dreinbol/oradourindex.html>, which even includes a "German perspective" (whitewash) of the massacre, claiming that eyewitnesses were unreliable because they were all communists or refugees from Poland ans Spain... .

Anyway, you job as a grandson is not to judge your grandfather, but to love him.

And yes, Germanboy is correct is saying that the trial of Panzermeyer was tainted as described, which probably saved Meyer's life.But German soldiers under Meyer's command testified at the trial that he DID give the orders to kill the prisoners.

And I would agree that the fact that Meyer remained a rabid Nazi until his death does not prove in itself that he was guilty of murder, although it doesn't help to make him more sympathetic...

Henri

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Henri:

And I would agree that the fact that Meyer remained a rabid Nazi until his death does not prove in itself that he was guilty of murder, although it doesn't help to make him more sympathetic...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think we are in full agreement there. Did not know about the orders (been a while that I read Reynolds), but I think it is a shame that the Canadians did not try harder to make it a fair trial.

------------------

Andreas

[The DesertFox]

One addition to Panzermeyer might be helpfull for everyone interested in his personality and his involvement in the atrocities being committed while he was commander of SS-Panzergrenadierregiment 25 and the Division itself after 16th June 44.

First read his own highly distorted view of his wartime-reality he gives in his book "Grenadiere" which was written by himself and published 1957. AFAIK translated into english and published via Fedorowicz.

Second, I highly recommend to read the book of his son, Kurt Meyer, Title "Geweint wird wenn der Kopf ab ist", published 1998 via HERDER/SPEKTRUM and afaik not translated into english. In this book "Panzermeyer´s" son gives a pretty clear description of his fathers character, his own relationship to his father "Panzermeyer" and his fathers HIAG relationships.

Third, on the topic of atrocities there has been published an IMO excellent book about especially the 12th SS HJ and what Meyer, Milius, Bremer and Mohnke were responsible for. The book is written by Howard Margolian, its title is "Conduct Unbecomming", published 1998 via University of Toronto press.

It all in all is a very "Hot" and "sensitive point" with many biased publications on both sides of the fence. It really isn´t sufficient to only read one book to get the whole picture, you need more than that to filter out the truth, what is fact and what is myth.

BTW: If you can get them, look for the stuff MacDonald "The trial of Kurt Meyer" 1954 and Tony Foster have published. It really adds to the picture.

As I have said, it´s a really sensible field with much misconception but one fact remains: The Murdered that can´t be brought back to life.

Helge

------------------

Sbelling chequed wyth MICROSOFT SPELLCHECKER - vorgs grate!

- The DesertFox -

Email: desertfox1891@hotmail.com

WWW: http://www.geocities.com/desertfox1891

[Guest Rommel22]

Well intersting stuuf.

Yes the commander is mentioned in the book thanks.

I don't judge my Grnadfather, I ask him about stories from the war. The stories are jus amazing, just amazing. He is really a nice guy. I showed him all the wwII games I have including this one. all he did was:

he had a smirk on his face and said " Crazy americans" I started laughing, and he left.

But later he said, he appreciates that some youth still acknoweldge the war. Unlike other teens who don't even know who hitler or Stalin were.

Well thats about it. Sorry for all the wrong spelling, I just don't care and most people know what i mean to write.

------------------

Russian tactics as said by von Mellenthin "Bridge heads everywhere"

[Gary T]

For the some of the transcripts of Panzermeyer's trial (as well as others) go here: http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/war_criminals.htm

The site is part of the University of West Engalnd (Bristol Poly ) and is quite intersting reading.

As for James Lucas's book it sits firmly in the 'Waffen-SS worship' corner. The eye witness accounts are of some value as long as they are taken in context but as with all of Lucas's books (mostly German subjects but the odd British one IIRC) the description of combat owes more to comic books than serious historical study (although Das Reich is certainly better than some others, mainly to its reliance on veteran's recollections).

Henri - the fellow who wrote the 'German' view of the Oradour massacre is held up as a Waffen-SS expert on certain forums. I had a 'discussion' with him in which he claimed that the Le Paradis massacre by Totenkopf in 1940 was totally justified on account that the surrendering British troops had used dum-dum bullets. When asked exactly what court this was proved in and what evidence there was to prove this I got no reply. (For those who don't know the British troops were killed immediately after surrender i.e. no trial and those that claimed that dum-dum bullets were used were, you've guessed it, the same troops responsible for the massacre).

[This message has been edited by Gary T (edited 07-26-2000).]

[Henri]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The DesertFox:

Second, I highly recommend to read the book of his son, Kurt Meyer, Title "Geweint wird wenn der Kopf ab ist", published 1998 via HERDER/SPEKTRUM and afaik not translated into english. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for all the info. Just to complete, there was an interesting program on the Canadian History channel on Meyer's trial, which included an interview with Meyer's son,who obviously regrette his father's continued involvement with the SS after his release from jail.

Henri

[Durutti]

Don't wish to add fuel to the flames or get into a nationalistic wrangle but 'Caen: Anvil of Victory' by Mckee has something to say about the Panzer Meyer controversy. Amongst the eyewitness accounts are extensive interviews with Sgt.Gariepy of 2nd Canadian Armd Bde.

'On June 8th, a group of Canadian prisoners were executed by the Germans, and on June 9th, before the morning conference at Ardenne

Abbey, Meyer was shown the bodies of a similar group of German prisoners, who had obviously been lined up and shot through the head by the Canadians. Meyer was later held nominally responsible for the murder of the Canadians and his judge was the former Brigadier H W Foster...no Canadian general was ever held responsible for the murder of the Germans, or any explanation tendered for a notebook entry found by the Germans on a Canadian captain on June 7th to the effect that prisoners would not be taken. The death sentence on Meyer was commuted by the Canadian GOC, Gen. Crerar, despite protests by those ignorant of the background.'

Gariepy goes on to say he was glad the sentence was lifted and implies that the Nuremburg trials were at this stage becoming discredited as unease grew at charges against German combat commanders when allied troops were known to have committed similar atrocities. No allied troops were charged with war crimes - Russian judges even helped try Germans accused of the Katyn Wood massacre of Polish officers which the Red Army itself had committed.

'In a dugout Lieutenant Miller found two disguised Germans, one in the uniform of an English captain, the other in the uniform of a British soldier. Realizing the consequences of such an offence against the laws of war, the two SS men resist to the death. No prisoners are taken this day on either side.'

'"I witnessed a real carnage of infantry troops (Germans) in a field close to Carpiquet" wrote Sergeant Gariepy..."The Regiment de la Chaudiere scurried in the semi-darkness and actually slit the throats of most soldiers they found, wounded as well as dead. This horrible carnage I actually saw from the turret of my tank at first light. These boys were actually crazed by some frenzy at being caught napping; the

officers of the Regiment had to draw their pistols against their own men to make them come back to reason..."'

'...However, from then on, variations of the phrase, "No quarter given on either side this day", toll through the individual narratives, the Regimental histories and even the Divisional histories...'

'...This was the usual pattern: snipers who would pick off two, three or four men of an advancing platoon, then as they came to close quarters, stand up and surrender. The men whose friends had just been shot by him did not always feel inclined to let the killing stop at that point...'

(all quotes from 'Caen: Anvil of Victory, Alexander McKee)

Extreme stress and anger at the loss of friends are difficult to cope with, after all, how do you get ordinary guys to kill another bunch of 'ordinary guys' who probably have more in common with each-other than

the leaders of their respective countries who are telling them to do the killing? Part of the initial training is usually to instill extreme nationalistic hatred of 'the others' to effect this transition. Again from McKee:-

'...It is no wonder the German troops believe Nazi propaganda about Canadian troops being savages with scalping knives. Many of the captured enemy are quite surprised to find these Canadians ...are really quiet,

civilized, calm and well-diciplined when one meets them after the battle.'

Another reason for atrocities? How about that other 'Secret History'-the official use of drugs by the combatants in WW2. I don't know if US troops were issued stimulants (anybody got info?) but the British, Germans and Canadians certainly were:-

'...a Canadian scouting party returning to its unit surprised the command group. The one-armed Oberst Luxemburger was struck down and tied to one of the reconnaissance tanks. The enemy tank was later destroyed by an anti-tank gun...After crossing the Channel, the Canadians had to overcome the exhaustion of the subsequent day-long combat operations by taking Benzamine, stay-awake tablets. These "Benzies"- similar to the German Pervitin, increased one's physical capability, but also reduced scrupulousness and thus increased one's bloodthirstiness- were a continuation of the despised chemical warfare of the First World War in another form...'

('The Western Front 1944: Memoirs of a Panzer Lehr Officer'-Helmut

Ritgen)

Cornelius Ryan mentions 'Benzies' being used by the British Airborne at Arnhem in 'A Bridge Too Far'. It turned many into complete loons and at least one instance of surrendering Germans being shot is given. Interestingly Ryan explains this away as 'battle-stress', whereas the single instance of a surrendering British soldier being killed is described as 'typical SS brutality'. My point is you can't always take 'received wisdom' at face value. The Chinese troops at Tianeman Square weren't the first to get dosed up on 'Speed' in order to turn them into killing machines.

[Los]

A good post Durutti,

As an aside with this whole benzies thing, I believe there is a misinterpretation of what they were used for, having had to take them myself on occasion (a long time ago, now raw packets of freeze dried coffee do the same) after operations had stretched past 24 or 36 hours with no sleep.

While speed has no doubt been misused at times, in a combat type situation you take it when you absolutely have to go on for a little while longer but your body cannot. On the first day without sleep it can help get over the "hump" in your sleep cycle and keep you going for a while but once you start stretching into 36 hours or more even benzies won't help and will leave you just shaking quivering and wild eyed, though I wouldn't say frenzied, more like disoriented. Take the stuff more than once or twice without a rest and you become totally useless. I have seen a few LTs from my day as a scout in the 82d. (where more than anywhere else we were on the go throughout the night and day after the initial parachute drop often on rather long missions.)

Los

[Durutti]

Thanks for the interesting comments, Los. My reading of 'A Bridge Too Far' is that the British paras trapped in the 'Cauldron' took Benzamine for the same reasons as you stated - constant day and night fighting in what was meant to be a limited op. The implication from Helmut Ritgen's book (I notice he appears in the Villers Bocage Op as a crack (no pun intended...) PzIV commander) was that some Canadian units were issued 'benzies' on a routine basis during the Normandy campaign at least and this had severe psychological effects. What exactly was the legal status of these kinds of drugs in the military, post war and after? Certainly seems like an untold history. I must confess to taking amphetamines twice many years ago and have had no desire to take them since. I imagine prolongued use would be quite devastating.

[MikeO]

I suppose units dosed up on benzies could be treated as fanatical???

[Durutti]

I was thinking along the same lines myself...