How do Germans feel about WWII, NOW?

[thomasj]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy:

I am sorry, but I have no idea what you might be talking about. Who was that, the Spartakists?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Was trying to be politically correct, but to be blunt the JEWS. They sold massive amounts of information to the allies during WW1 while being German Citizens and were as bold as to stay in Germany after the war thinking nothing would ever happen.......Do that in the states or any other country and see what happens. It's sad, but true.

[G4A]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by thomasj:

Was trying to be politically correct [...] <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You failed.

[ironcross]

im interested in this thread,however i feel that should anyone who wasnt present at the time be able to talk correctly about it.I dont mean that we cannot have our opinions,but to quote my father who fought in burma and returned home in 1946 ,sick with fever and suffering for many years,when i asked him about it,all he could say was my eyes tell the story,he liberated americans and brits and canucks from their death camps he said what he saw noone would believe nor would understand.

We lost our house in birmingham and a bomb disposal crew when the bomb went up,i lost 2 uncles and a cousin killed in various actions.I feel too much is spent on blaming people for the actions of their goverments or blaming people for what happened 60 years ago,the death camps are in action still,so is political oppression and torture,wars through race go on.YOU can try to stop them now,or in 50 years you will be blamed as our forfathers are

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software:

OK, my two cents worth...

The average German soldier should feel some degree of shame as should any soldier whose indirect actions allowed the direct actions of others to murder, plunder, and destroy. The degree of shame should be proportional to the degree of active participation. But nobody should get off scott free.

Steve<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I actually think that quite well reflects the way my grand-father and probably many other veterans in Germany think about their part in it. As the saying goes: 'Silence speaks louder than words', and the silence of many German veterans has been telling in this respect. The other (fortunately much less frequent) variant is the 'It was not all that bad' story-telling.

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Andreas

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by thomasj:

Was trying to be politically correct, but to be blunt the JEWS. They sold massive amounts of information to the allies during WW1 while being German Citizens and were as bold as to stay in Germany after the war thinking nothing would ever happen.......Do that in the states or any other country and see what happens. It's sad, but true. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is a complete failure to understand the position of Jewish Germans in imperial Germany and also an insult to the number of Jewish Germans who fought and died for the German Empire in the Great War. Care to mention any sources?

FWIW - Imperial Germany was one of the countries in which Jewish people were not a visible minority. They were extremely well integrated into society, and worked in all sorts of position in society, mostly on a very high level. They were not segregated, they did not speak a different language, and since the early 19th century there had been a massive and largely successful, yet ultimately futile attempt by them to integrate with German society as a whole. To suggest that as a group they sold out Germany during the Great War is just wrong.

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Andreas

Edited for embarassing typo...

[This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 06-22-2000).]

[thomasj]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by G4A:

You failed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So be it, but sometimes the truth is not a nice thing like people want to believe. I lost in total 11 great uncles in WW2, and served 9 years myself. Point of the matter is we were not there, and we are not starving. For anyone to try and pass judgement on anyone of the war is insane.

A small event that happened in WW2 around DEC 44 if I remember what I was told by one of my two remaining grandfathers. Seems that on Christmas day 44, the fighting between his unit and the gemrans ceased for about 24 hours and they (Americans&Germans) celebrated christmas with a dinner of military rations, interacted a bit and then went back to thier lines......

Most German soldiers throughout the war were not aware of the deathcamps, they were fighting for their country, pride, honor, and in the end their lives. (Discovery channel Europe, show: Soldiers of the Wehrmach(SP?))

[kunstler]

quote: Oh no, how wrong you are.

Leningrad, had it been slightly less defended, would have been taken by the Germans in August-Sept.41. In fact the city was very important strategically, it was the last grasp the Soviets had on the Baltic Sea and I believe it was also a great production center.

The reason the city was besieged is of a military nature. Hitler was at that stage extremely afraid of city fighting after he had heard about the new remote-controlled bomb charges that the Russians had used to great effect earlier in Kiev. So, instead of wearing out the 18.Armee and the precious 4.PanzerArmee in costly city fighting, he thought he could do things quicker by starving out the city. Or rather, the city's defenders. After Hoepner's Panzers were diverted south for a more important goal(Moscow), the city could no longer be stormed.

Believe me, in the late summer of '41 Hitler still thought he could win the military campaign; so had he been presented Leningrad on a plate, he would have taken it.

You may be correct, but I am not nearly as wrong as you believe.

Take this order from Adolf Hitler, September 18th, 1941, and I quote:

"A capitulation of Leningrad or Moscow is not to be accepted, even if offered."

Clarrified on the 29th September:

"The Fuehrer has decided to have St. Petersburg (Leningrad) wiped off the face of the earth. The further existance of this large city is of no interest once Soviet Russia is overthrown.

The intention is to close in on the city and raze it to the ground by artillery and by continuous air attack . . .

Requests that the city be taken over will be turned down, for the problem of the survival of the population and of supplying it with food is one which cannot and should not be solved by us. In this war for existence we have no interest in keeping even part of this great city's population."

[thomasj]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy:

That is a complete failure to understand the position of Jewish Germans in imperial Germany and also an insult to the number of Jewish Germans who fought and died for the German Empire in the Great War. Care to mention any sources?

FWIW - Imperial Germany was one of the countries in which Jewish people were not a visible minority. They were extremely well integrated into society, and worked in all sorts of position in society, mostly on a very high level. They were not segregated, they did not speak a different language, and since the early 19th century there had been a massive and largely successful, yet ultimately futile attempt by them to integrate with German society as a whole. To suggest that as a group they sold out Germany during the Great War is just wrong.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe that I have a better understanding of the big picture then you give me credit for, and I was not insulting the ones that fought in WW1 for Germany. I was simply stating facts that were used for propaganda purposes of the Nazi party. I submit the following indepth post for your reading pleasure :

At the end of WWI there was, at the insistence of France and a lesser degree Briton, imposed a treaty which would make Kiser's Germany pay repatriations for the next hundred or so years, along with concessions of land for immediate disposal to the victorious Allies!

Prior to America's entry into WWI, Dupont Corporation sold the gun powder to both Germany and French/British munitions makers. Some historians draw a direct parallel to Germany's capitulation and the fact that the Kaiser could no longer produce ammunition... as trench warfare was a very gunpowder intensive type of conflict. Burn Dupont into your memory for international trade with neutral countries is always going to be a problem. Lack of trade with no longer neutral countries (America) will strangle you.

After WWI, the Jewish population was cited by British intelligence, government and industry sources for providing pivotal economic information on Kaiser's Germany. After WWI, banking and the gem trade were the primary domain of the Jewish elite and they often smuggley boasted that they helped bring Germany to her knees by providing information. After WWI, a disabled war veteran of the trenches who served valiantly (even won the Iron Cross amongst numerous others for bravery and wounded 3 times/gassed) became active in the politics of the defeated, hungry Germany. His oratory skills soon propelled him to the top of a very German orientated social, economic and political movement.

Adolph Hitler, highly decorated, and preaching both his own ideas and those of his political mentors, spoke of German self reliance. He attacked the Versailles Treaty which made Germany a debtor to the Allied Victors from WWI and the limitation on a defense force of 100,000 men, loss of German territory and ultimately the pride of the German people. Hitler was well aware of the statements by the British sources in the press and Jewish Elite still in Germany making noise about using their positions in industry to sabotage the valiant war in which he served... the war which ripped all pride from the noble German peoples - Germany.

Hitler took a defeated, war-torn populace and gave most of them hope in the form of jobs and restoration of German territory. In the late 30's, he took back his Country's land which was partitioned off at the insistence of the French - and still lesser extent the Brit's! Quite naturally, the French and Brit's both were alarmed at this turn of events -- their current government budgets and expenditures still factored in Germany under the Treaty of Versailles (Look up this treaty and see what was given as concession and then understand the Marshal Plan by America after WWII in rebuilding all the Nations of Europe!).

Back to Hitler and the Jews. The Jews were simply targeted because they had participated, at the least the wealthy elite of industry/business, and openly spoke of it in the Victor's Circles how they helped defeat Germany. No Nation can survive both assaults from without and within. No Nation can long endure when its peoples are divided. Hitler was the great unifier (people, land, empire). Solutions to problems had to be found and be permanent. Stalin, another great man from this period of history, himself once stated, "No man, no problem."

Obviously, the world of the early 20th Century was a very different one from the world we live in now. Men were the masters of women; women and people who were not by blood linage from the country in which they lived could not vote or participate in most economic endeavors. Most of the known world had been divided among the European powers during the 15th-19th centuries and great empires existed - the pride of each nation! 1999 saw the lowering of the British flag in Hong Kong which ended the "Empire on Which the Sun Never Sets". Empires were not created by worrying about the feelings of a few insignificant problematic people or peoples.

Okay, What I met was that Germany veiled in State Secrecy (and should be noted that Hitler never visited any "Final Solution" site) executed an efficient plan to eliminate once and for all a thorn in their side - and a group which came to symbolize their defeat in the last great war!

The above mentioned comments are not my personal views, at least not specifically, and I do not condone the Final Solution Plan created by the Nazi Party inter circle. I just call'em as I see'em.

Remember, history is written by the Victors! You will have to research long and hard to gain any unbiased information - or go to sources from all sides in a conflict.

[Guest Big Time Software]

Funny enough, although I received my degree in History studying this era of history (and the subsequently 10 years since) I never read of anything even remotely like this. Hmmm... I have to wonder about the sources for this since it smacks of historical revisionism, in the worst sense. It is, at the very least, seemingly trying to justify Hitler's insane (and he was insane) hatred for all things Jewish. I suppose the mutny of the Navy at Kiel was instigated by Jewish bankers, or it was they that starved out the German population, and of course it was they who spread the seeds of Communism. Obviously they were the ones responsible for the German Army losing on the battlefield too. Nonsense. The Germans lost WWI just like they lost WWII, and for pretty much the same reasons. They took on too many foriegn powers with far too little resources and an economy that was not up to the task. And I will point out that Germany during WWII had far more "Ayrian" traitors than they did Jewish ones, since the latter were a little too busy being gassed to death to dable with MI5.

Since this thread has strayed way off the topic of this BBS, and is going down into anti-semitism pretty quickly here, I am going to close this one up for good. Be smart and don't try and NOBODY open it up again.

Steve