WendellM Posted September 2, 2000 Share Posted September 2, 2000 I was curious about the effect of "Computer Experience" (none, +1, +2, +3) which isn't mentioned in the manual (at least I haven't been able to find it in mine, though I may be off). I'd read in this forum that it was possibly supposed to increase the Experience Level of troops (Regular/Veteran, etc.) but this doesn't seem to be the case (this isn't indicated when viewing Map after a battle). I'd also read that there were several "flavors" of AI (overly-aggressive, aggressive, somewhat cautious, etc.) and that this was perhaps supposed to choose a more-suitable one for the situation at hand. So, to start to sort this out, I put together a test scenario. This test scenario ("TWM deathpit") has default parameters, except: May 1945 (I wanted everyone available), Meeting Engagement, No flags (this is pure firepower-based). Units: 3 American Rifle Platoons (worth 129 ea.) vs. 3 Heer Pz Grenadier Platoons (mot) (worth 129 ea.). The map is all clear, 240m on a side. Each side's 9 squads are deployed in a line, with the outer squads about 40m from the map edges and each squad about 20m from the next. The lines of squads are about 120m from each other (thus about 60m from their respective rear map edges). HQs are deployed about 12m behind the center squad in the platoon. In other words, a solid line of rifle squads facing each other across an empty battlefield, with HQs close behind. These forces weren't chosen for any reason other than their point values matched. My results may not be precisely typical/average (low statistical sampling - generally 30+ samples are preferred), but they should be in the ballpark, and thus of general interest. Any revisions to my reasoning, or additional tests out to determine the effects to "Computer Experience" are welcome. Tests: 7 runs with AI controlling Axis, then AI controlling Allies, at None, +1, +2, and +3 Computer Experience. The single greatest pro-Axis and pro-Ally result were ignored in each run, leaving 5 results to be averaged (mean). To have a rough idea of overall Axis/Ally balance, a Control run was done as 7 Hotseat games, with units on both sides remaining still. In all tests, the AI sent about 1/3 to 2/3 of his forces forward while the rest remained back giving covering fire. Depending on the initial success, more units possibly moved up. This overall "strategy" seemed pretty constant regardless of the side controlled or Experience Level. The Control run only accounts for units firing at their initial ranges, without moving, but should serve as a rough balancing factor for the overall pro-Axis results observed. Though each platoon on either side is "worth" 129 points, that figure is doubtless an attempt at an overall measure of efficiency in many situations, and not just a straight firefight like this. Just because there's a pro-Axis bias under these conditions does not necessarily mean that the units are "priced" incorrectly. In the runs below, * = one of the two extreme results (highest/lowest) that is ignored. Otherwise, the result is rated as how well the AI faired (+ = better, - = worse). These results are unadjusted for any pro-Axis bias (comments on that will follow). Computer Experience Normal (None) AI-CONTROLLED SIDE AXIS_______ALLY AX AL______AX AL 25 75=-50 _84 16=-68 23 77=-54 _79 21=-58* 68 32=+36* 81 19=-62 26 74=-48 _81 19=-62 36 64=-28 _87 13=-74 17 83=-66* 91 9=-82* 36 64=-28 _80 20=-60 AVG = -42 _AVG = -65 Computer Experience +1 AI-CONTROLLED SIDE AXIS_______ALLY AX AL______AX AL 55 45=+10 _76 24=-52 51 49=+02 _71 29=-42* 45 55=-10 _79 21=-58 48 52=-04 _83 17=-66 24 76=-52* 77 23=-54 58 42=+16 _85 15=-70 64 36=+28* 93 7=-86* AVG = +03 _AVG = -60 Computer Experience +2 AI-CONTROLLED SIDE AXIS_______ALLY AX AL______AX AL 58 42=+16 _43 57=+14* 58 42=+16 _76 24=-52 46 54=-08 _82 18=-64* 60 40=+20* 79 21=-58 48 52=-04 _51 49=-02 43 57=-14* 71 29=-42 58 42=+16 _80 20=-60 AVG = +07 _AVG = -43 Computer Experience +3 AI-CONTROLLED SIDE AXIS_______ALLY AX AL______AX AL 43 57=-14* 71 29=-42* 52 48=+04 _52 48=-04 48 52=-04 _62 38=-24 59 41=+15 _52 48=-04 54 46=+08 _47 53=+06* 63 37=+26* 51 49=-02 54 46=+08 _58 42=-16 AVG = +05 _AVG = -10 Thus the average (mean) results from None through +3 are: AXIS ALLY AXIS BIAS AVG = -42 AVG = -65 +23 AVG = +03 AVG = -60 +57 AVG = +07 AVG = -43 +50 AVG = +05 AVG = -10 +15 Yielding an average (mean) Axis bias of: +36 Control (Hotseat) AX AL (Axis superiority) 77 23 = +54* 60 40 = +20* 77 23 = +54 76 24 = +52 68 32 = +36 76 24 = +52 71 29 = +42 AVG = +47 So, under "balanced" conditions, the Axis can expect to achieve a +47 score over the Allies. Again, this is a crude estimate that doesn't take into account the fact that the AI likes to move closer while under fire (which involves the fact that the German squads have 10 men while the American squads have 12, along with the various characteristics of German weapons vs. American weapons). In any case, averaging this with the observed +36 yields a factor of +42: Computer Experience Normal (None) AI-CONTROLLED SIDE AXIS ALLY AVG = -42 AVG = -23 Computer Experience +1 AI-CONTROLLED SIDE AXIS ALLY AVG = +03 AVG = -18 Computer Experience +2 AI-CONTROLLED SIDE AXIS ALLY AVG = +07 AVG = -01 Computer Experience +3 AI-CONTROLLED SIDE AXIS ALLY AVG = +05 AVG = +32 Thus the revised average (mean) results from None through +3 are: +19 -15 +08 -27 ---- -15 (naturally close 36-47) Well, anyway, such manipulation brings the results closer together, with alternating juxtaposition, so it's probably worth something. Something else worth noting is that once one side achieved a slight superiority, that tended to cascade into a great superiority (since a few unsuppressed riflemen on the winning side were able to suppress a few more on the losing side, leading to more winning-side men being freed to fire on more losing-side men, and so on). There were exceptions, but this was the general rule, so the final results are somewhat expanded from the initial firepower superiority that caused that result. The main point I get from this is that a Computer Experience of "none" cannot really be considered fair. At least a +1, if not a +2, seems called for to achieve anything like "fair" results (compared to an opponent who just always sits still). Again, these are just my interpretations against the AI under specific conditions. What I've seen *seems* to indicate that the efficiency of fire is boosted for AI squads with regard to player squads when "Computer Experience" is raised - maybe that is what is intended (I don't see it in my manual but it could be missing). I'm not sure what factors "Computer Experience" is/are supposed to represent. That is, it doesn't give the AI more units (there's another setting for that), and it doesn't seem to make the AI more "intelligent" (the "strategy" seems to remain "advance with 1/3-2/3 of your forces"). Instead, it just seems to make AI units kill better/be more resistant to killing (or both). I could well be wrong (and would actually be happy to be proven so), but based on my findings (below) it *seems* like "Computer Experience" functions the same way that "artificially boost AI killing/defense skills" works in other games (at least under the limited circumstances that I've tested it). [This message has been edited by WendellM (edited 09-02-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEF BUNGIS Posted September 2, 2000 Share Posted September 2, 2000 Wendell; You got alot more better edgucation than me. ------------------ The counter-revolution, people smilling through their tears. Who can give them back their lives, and all those wasted years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest *Captain Foobar* Posted September 2, 2000 Share Posted September 2, 2000 WOW. You have done a whole lot of work. I am lazy. I would never take on such a project, BUT I do know what the computer experience bonus is... the +1, +2, or +3, I have been lead to believe, is +1 experience level for the computer. for +1,If you get regulars, they get veterans, etc. I dont think it was defined in the manual, but I do remember someone answering that question here in the forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WendellM Posted September 2, 2000 Author Share Posted September 2, 2000 >You got alot more better edgucation than me. Heh... thanks, Def, but what I have is really the curse of fiddlin'-details . I sometimes find myself more interested in the details and statistics of a wargame than actually playing it. Fortunately CM is nifty enough to transcend this: though the stats still beckon to me. I've played CM much more - including PBEM - than any game in recent memory. Those who can play such games well without such fiddlin' have my respect . Regards to all players... [This message has been edited by WendellM (edited 09-02-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WendellM Posted September 2, 2000 Author Share Posted September 2, 2000 *Captain Foobar* wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>the +1, +2, or +3, I have been lead to believe, is +1 experience level for the computer. for +1, If you get regulars, they get veterans, etc. I dont think it was defined in the manual, but I do remember someone answering that question here in the forum.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Thanks Captain, but while I agree with you that I also read that (and that it would make sense), the post-battle "Map" view still shows those +3 enemy units as "Regular." Maybe their status just isn't updated in CM itself? I may be way off here, but since I don't see such a status update, I attribute the extra combat effectiveness to other factors (though I admit that I could well be wrong). Again, thanks for the reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joeri Posted September 3, 2000 Share Posted September 3, 2000 Great work. Maybe the explanation is that the experience level of the troops is raised but that they are still clasified as the original experience level. Thus a regular would fight like vetran (at +1) but would still show as regualer (and cost as much as regular). This would be consistent with all observations. Joeri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironcross Posted September 3, 2000 Share Posted September 3, 2000 well i know where the mouse plugs in, and what hamsters dance like so i think ill stay out of this thread. too many brainy people --------------------------------------------- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elementalwarre Posted September 3, 2000 Share Posted September 3, 2000 looky ma all those numbers! can i play with them huh can i please? couple of comments - various comments from veteran players - not me! - have said this raises the AI units' experience by whatever amount you select. it's just not displayed visually when selecting those units - if a given unit was green, it still displays as green. you should see a change in command delays/etc though - your experiment gives the ai infantry only vs infantry only. they're both on flat terrain with little room for maneuver. if this setting meant a better AI, IMHO you gave it little to show off its intelligence [This message has been edited by elementalwarre (edited 09-03-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest *Captain Foobar* Posted September 4, 2000 Share Posted September 4, 2000 we need a BTS reply on this. I havent been able to determine the truth of it myself.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ataru *~ Posted September 4, 2000 Share Posted September 4, 2000 Ditto what Captain Foobar said. Ataru Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WendellM Posted September 4, 2000 Author Share Posted September 4, 2000 An impeccable source (next-best thing to BTS) has confirmed that +n increases AI unit experience levels by n. So at +1, Green become Regular, at +3 Regular become Elite, etc. (though the quality displayed doesn't seem to change). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Brian Posted September 4, 2000 Share Posted September 4, 2000 Wendel, That's a great numerical analysis you went through. It actually helps me a lot. I kind of feel that the computer opponent (I won't call it "AI") is lacking. I've always thought about creating an Expert System (a branch of AI) for a wargame. I wonder if BTS or Major H would want to experiment with one? ------------------ Doc God Bless Chesty Puller, Wherever He Is! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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