Wild Bill Wilder Posted April 8, 2000 Share Posted April 8, 2000 Well, you gentlemen have had a field day smashing, cursing and generally deriding another web site. And its sad, because you have heard only from one person with an evident bone to pick with SPWAW and Matrix Games. I've read over the posts and want to comment. Before I do, I want to say I feel somewhat qualified to speak on the subject. I have been involved in every beta test of every version of Steel Panthers since 1994. I have also been involved with CM since its alpha version. So that should qualify me to say a few things about the matter. Blood and Guts came to the Matrix forum not to talk about the subjects that are there, but to tout and brag about how much better CM is than any SP game. That is okay to a point. I think CM is a marvelous game. I have backed it 1000%. We even have a section on the Raider page supporting CM along with Madmatt's CMHQ page. Few games have two sections of their web site supporting a game that has yet to be published. So we have no problem at Matrix or TGN supporting Combat Mission and Big Time Software. Five of the beta testers are also Raiders in my group. We have worked as hard as anyone to improve and enhance the game with many hours of hard testing and scenario design. Now for us to be accused of being against the Combat Mission or downplaying it is RIDICULOUS! One person does not speak for the entire group. I would think you gentlemen would be adult enough to know that. I could be wrong. Both Steel Panthers and Combat Mission fill a need in gaming. For Blood and Guts to wander into the Matrix Forum on Steel Panthers and put on an ad campaign for Combat Mission while deriding and ridiculing our efforts seems hardly the actions of a mature adult. The newest version, Steel Panthers, World at War is something you might read about and learn about before you body slam it into the ground. Why not do that? http://spwaw.thegamers.net Progress in gaming is inevitable. Combat Mission is a big step forward and I love it. I hope Steve, who monitors this forum, will attest to the fact that I as much as anyone in the beta test group, have given my all to see this come to a succesful completion. The Forum about Steel Panthers is just that at Matrix Games. The forum at Battlefront is for Combat Mission. Lets discuss them both in both places, but lets not go to own to badmouth their product and tout another. I think there is time and opportunity to play both if we wish without being classified as Neanderthal because we like a game that has been around for six years. The fact that it is still being played, revised and enjoyed by thousands speaks for itself. ------------------ Wild Bill Wild Bill's Raiders Director of Scenario Design, The Gamers Net billw@thegamers.net http://wbr.thegamers.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEF BUNGIS Posted April 8, 2000 Share Posted April 8, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wild Bill Wilder: ..... And its sad, because you have heard only from one person with an evident bone to pick with SPWAW and Matrix Games. ...... For Blood and Guts to wander into the Matrix Forum on Steel Panthers and put on an ad campaign for Combat Mission while deriding and ridiculing our efforts seems hardly the actions of a mature adult. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I HAVE stopped by the SPW@W forum,and, it seems very dead. No excitement. Dull subjects, kind of like "well ummmm....cant really talk about much today" type of atmosphere. Is this possibly because the administrator IS keeping the whip in hand like Ol'G&G talks about? Ahhh....and it seems ol' B&G is a mature adult. With an opinion based on the facts he see's, Others wise you would have ignored the entire matter all togethter. And, his thread here at CM would have died 50 something posts ago. This is just a non biased view point from DEF BUNGIS. No harm meant. ------------------ Better to make the wrong decision than be the sorry son of a bitch to scared to make one at all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ol' Blood & Guts Posted April 8, 2000 Share Posted April 8, 2000 Well if the venerable Paul Vebber not had deleted the posts and I could have gone back and checked exactly what I wrote and apologize if necessary, I would have. However, I don't recall just up and slamming SP:W@W. Although I might have, I don't remember. But whatever the case, I think it's a bit immature to just go around deleting anything that you very well please because you (Paul Vebber) don't like the content. And I just love to see legitimate questions concerning the Matrix games answered by "We'll get back to you when we know something." I mean, don't they know? They're designing the damn things. At least Steve and/or Charles will almost always come back with a definite answer in a timely manner. I just have a problem with the way the Matrix Games Forum is being run, not necessarily the games themselves. I, like most people around here for that matter, are looking forward to the PacWar II game. But the development and communication between developers and consumers is very poor. For games that are supposedly coming out soon, how come the public doesn't know much about them and their features??? I've seen several comments on here that talk about how the information updates on these games are about nil. For the developer not to have a clear-cut answer to a most basic question creates questions in the minds of the public. I respect your Testing duties, Wild Bill, but let's see some more expertise over there regarding Q&A ------------------ "I am not interested in the names of your fathers...nor of your family's lineage. What I am interested in...is your breaking point!"--Gen. Chang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Wilder Posted April 8, 2000 Author Share Posted April 8, 2000 Have I ever responded to you in that fashion? If I don't know, I'll say I don't know, B&G. If its classified, I'll say so. Truly I don't think anyone can say that I have never answered a question to the best of my ability. So ask me. Write me. What do you need to know? I am ready to respond to the best of my ability. You've never asked me a question. I'm ready when you are billw@thegamers.net Drop me a line or ask here if you prefer. And thank you for the kind words. That is sincere, not sarcasm. ------------------ Wild Bill Wild Bill's Raiders Director of Scenario Design, The Gamers Net billw@thegamers.net http://wbr.thegamers.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ol' Blood & Guts Posted April 8, 2000 Share Posted April 8, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DEF BUNGIS: I HAVE stopped by the SPW@W forum,and, it seems very dead. No excitement. Dull subjects, kind of like "well ummmm....cant really talk about much today" type of atmosphere.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I know, where's the excitement?! Just a new face on an old body, seems like. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Ahhh....and it seems OB&G is a mature adult. With an opinion based on the facts he sees, otherwise you would have ignored the entire matter all togethter. And, his thread here at CM would have died 50 something posts ago.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Thanks, I appreciate that. I think the problem is this as we've stated before in "my" thread. The enthusiasm for SPW@W is not what it should and could be. Seems like the remake of PacWar is more exciting than another redo of SP. And with lackluster responses on the part of the Matrix developers, there *isn't* much to get excited about. I mean look what happens when Steve answers a question that one of us asks and then we all praise Steve for the promptness and then we commence will drooling again. How can you drool when the answer is, "We don't know" or "We'll let you know later."?? Again, I have no problem with the games themselves, nor with the forums members, just the poor representation of the administrators. ------------------ "I am not interested in the names of your fathers...nor of your family's lineage. What I am interested in...is your breaking point!"--Gen. Chang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Wilder Posted April 8, 2000 Author Share Posted April 8, 2000 Well, why not liven it up a bit, Def Bungis? Drop by, ask a question. I'll answer you. That's a promise. And I am quite sure the B&G is seeing and speaking of things from his point of view. He has that right, and I would be the last to say that he does not. But so do I. So am I wrong because I present another point of view? You seem to indicate that by my responding that I am automatically giving assent to his statements as total fact. What kind of reasoning is that? "Silence is assent," and I will not assent to what I consider an erroneous evaluation of the game or the people involved in its production. Or could it be that you just want to harangue with no interruption? And 60+ posts in no way affirms a fact, especially if the 60+ posts are based on the statement of one person's experience. Why don't you get in the water before you take someone's word that it is cold? Do you accept everything you hear that readily? Or do you search things out for yourself? Take the challenge. If you have a question or a comment about SPWAW or something related to gaming, make it known. Or is this cozy haven too comfortable for you? I don't mean to belittle anyone here. That is not my intent. It is only to clarify some points. How can that be construed as guilt? The only guilt I carry is that of speaking up. Or is that not allowed here, unless you are part of "the group?" ------------------ Wild Bill Wild Bill's Raiders Director of Scenario Design, The Gamers Net billw@thegamers.net http://wbr.thegamers.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Wilder Posted April 8, 2000 Author Share Posted April 8, 2000 My challenge stands and so far goes unanswered. As to enthusiasm, its quite evident you've not read the right posts or talked with the right people DB or B&G. Read this for some enthusiasm: http://spwaw.thegamers.net Read the review of what has been done. We'll be posting a new one with new screen shots and more developments in the game any day now. Again, talk to me. Ask me some questions. I'm ready to answer. I'm waiting... Questions, anyone? Here is my E-Mail address if you prefer to do it that way. billw@thegamers.net And we'll talk about it in personal E-Mail, on the Matrix Forum, on the Steel Panthers Forum, or you can call me. I'll send you my number. We won't encumber this site with SP related themes. This is a Combat Mision forum. Unless of course, we can relate the questions to CM. But SP is a different game, with a different approach to simulating war. So its hard to compare the two. But I'm ready, more than ready to talk about the game. Ask away, guys. I'm standing by... ------------------ Wild Bill Wild Bill's Raiders Director of Scenario Design, The Gamers Net billw@thegamers.net http://wbr.thegamers.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ol' Blood & Guts Posted April 8, 2000 Share Posted April 8, 2000 OK, Wild Bill. Just a little off-topic from the Matrix games themselves and a bit hypothectical, but what if someone just started a discussion over there concerning WWII in general? Would that thread be deleted? Cause it doesn't directly apply to the games themselves? Because if that was the case, this board would have dried up several months ago, 'cause "everything" was talked about already. ------------------ "I am not interested in the names of your fathers...nor of your family's lineage. What I am interested in...is your breaking point!"--Gen. Chang [This message has been edited by Ol' Blood & Guts (edited 04-08-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Wilder Posted April 8, 2000 Author Share Posted April 8, 2000 Interesting postulation, B&G. Here is my personal view on this subject. We have numerous forums at The Gamers Net. They cover different aspects, say from a particular game to other more abstract themes, such as military history. It has been my feeling that if a forum is dedicated to one theme, then the mail should focus on that theme. Here is my reasoning. Most of those who come there come with the purpose of reading and contributing thoughts pertaining to that theme. If they had something else in mind, they would go to where their interests were being addressed. They would have little or no interest in another theme and would wonder why something unrelated to that theme was being discussed. On the other hand, every forum gets off topic sometimes and we have to accept that fact. I am one of the worst for posting unrelated themes. On the SP forum we have talked about everything from families in need, the WW2 memmorial fund, the birth of my first great-grandchild (don't go there..I ain't that old, though my wife says that dust comes out when I pass gas), to were the Tigers in SPR the real thing. And that is an E-Mail forum. So everyone who subscribes has to read all of this. For that reason I have to step and get folks back on track sometimes. Now on this type of forum, if I see a theme that does not interest me (and I see quite a few) I don't bother opening them. Isn't that how you do it? I think the problem is the idea of bashing or APPEARING to bash a program that is very dear to us and one on which we have been working for thousands of man hours. That hurts. And I feel it is unreasonable. It hurts even more when leaders throw in their two cents to give such actions credence. Be that as it may, and let me not stray here, I think an off-topic theme can be addressed and constructive criticism with the end of improvement is very good and desired, at least on my part. I support Combat Mission wholeheartedly and I equally support SP World at War wholeheartedly. And there is plenty more to talk about. Ask some questions. I'm ready to talk. ------------------ Wild Bill Wild Bill's Raiders Director of Scenario Design, The Gamers Net billw@thegamers.net http://wbr.thegamers.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEF BUNGIS Posted April 9, 2000 Share Posted April 9, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wild Bill Wilder: Well, why not liven it up a bit, Def Bungis? Drop by, ask a question. I'll answer you. That's a promise. .........The only guilt I carry is that of speaking up. Or is that not allowed here, unless you are part of "the group?" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yes SIR! I'm heading over there right now SIR! I do in fact have a question about SPW@W. Wild Bill, Form my expirence here on the CM board, almost anything is "allowed". BTS, from what I have seen, has NEVER deleted a thread. I have seen 3 locked threads out of about 100. One of the was the "Elian Gonzales" thread. Even with the bitching and argueing, the thread is still not DELETED (that IMO is total censorship and is the equivalant of communism),but LOCKED. Memebers can still read the thread, and base thier own conclusion on why it was closed. ------------------ Better to make the wrong decision than be the sorry son of a bitch to scared to make one at all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted April 9, 2000 Share Posted April 9, 2000 1. I don't think ANYONE should/could impugne Bill's commitment to good wargames.(note I said good wargames as opposed to simply saying CM etc etc.. ) 2. OB&G. Seems to me you have a problem with Paul Vebber's "moderation" and are letting that spill over a little into a rant-fest vs SPWAW. There's no problem in my book with you being pissed at Paul (whom I know and like and have PBEMed a few times) for him deleting your thread but there's no need to "widen" the field of fire and just antagonise Bill and others. I've been guilty myself, in the past, of nuking a city instead of just bombing a single house in that city and this smacks a little of that. FWIW Bill and his Raiders have done a great job testing CM and creating many scenarios, helping others create and test scenarios, making suggestions, bug-hunting etc etc and I'm quite sure Steve, Charles and any other testers would be more than willing to set anyone right who underestimates their involvement. Furthermore I've known Bill for a fair old time now ( must be close to two years by now eh Bill? ) and he's always behaved in the most professional and courteous manner possible and I don't like to see him feeling attacked or harrassed anywhere. My advice is simply to say "Damn, I'm pissed at Paul deleting my posts." and leave it at that. Getting yourself and others involved in a pissing match abotu CM isn't going to get anyone anywhere. SPWAW is going to be a free upgrade for Steel Panthers owners. Is it gonna be revolutionary in the way I think CM is? No. It's code base is something like 8 years old now so it stands to reason that it can't be as revolutionary as a game which was designed from the ground up without many of the outmoded conventions we see in other games. However, will it be a VERY worthwhile upgrade to a classic? Yes. Will it significantly update it? Yes. Is it "competing" with CM? Not really. It is free and is aimed only at those who already have SP. I seriously doubt anyone will buy an old copy of SP3 and download SPWAW instead of buying CM. I "may" be getting mellow in my old age but over the past months I've learned to pick my battles and disregard any which aren't worth fighting or necessary to fight. I don't think there's even a battle here unless we (and by we I mean people who like CM ) start one. The only battles you should start are ones in which you intend to rip your enemy's heart out and drink his blood and, since I know lots of SP players, I don't particularly want to go there (to their immense relief ). Seriously though, if it isn't worth going all out for then it isn't worth getting worked up over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ol' Blood & Guts Posted April 9, 2000 Share Posted April 9, 2000 Fionn, agreed. Wild Bill, no offense to you either. I don't undermine anything you've done with either game. All good work is appreciated. My whole complaint, basically, was mearly the way that board is moderated. Really, I didn't mind too much when the "SP fans" slammed CM. It's not like we haven't seen worse on this board anyway. What I really have a problem with is censorship. It's just the same as when they "butcher" a movie when they show it on network TV. Like DEF BUNGIS said, locking a thread up is one thing, but deleting a thread or post just doesn't seem right. At least one can still go and read a locked thread, but a deleted one? The Star Trek Armada Forum was like this too. That game came out with MAJOR "show-stopping" bugs like Intel 810 chipset, nVidia card chipsets (namely GeForce), and AMD Athlon motherboards incompatibilites. So when the game came out and it didn't work on alot of people's computers, the Forum filled up with complaints and stuff. So instead of standing up to disgruntled constumers, Activision took it upon themselves to DELETE the complaints. (Actually this is where the Battlefront.com Manifesto hits home the most.) It seemed that this game only worked with the posted "minimum requirements". People with PII233s and such with Voodoo cards could run it, but anybody with an nVidia card and newer system couldn't. Whoops, getting a little off-topic there, but you see what I mean. When the moderator of a board isn't "open" enough to allow "semi-free" discussion then that's where I get a little preturbed. And I hope we can end this discussion. I just take my First Amendment pretty seriously. Granted, some care must be given to the freedom also. (You just gotta love a country where you can crack jokes about the President having oral sex in the Oval Office) ------------------ "I am not interested in the names of your fathers...nor of your family's lineage. What I am interested in...is your breaking point!"--Gen. Chang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Wilder Posted April 9, 2000 Author Share Posted April 9, 2000 Thank you B&G and Fionn. In fact, thanks to all of you. I really appreciate the very kind words. I'm sorry it all came to this, but I guess that is what a forum is for. You all must know my dedication to Combat Mission. I love this game. I will play for a long time to come. It is a classic, a ground breaker in gaming. No hard feelings against anyone here, including Def Bungis (could you tell me what that means, please?), and old Blood and Guts (I know what that means). Thanks Fionn. The good will of my good Irish friend is as important to me as the "luck of the Irish." (G). Thank you all for listening and understanding. And I do, really do understand your point of view also. ------------------ Wild Bill Wild Bill's Raiders Director of Scenario Design, The Gamers Net billw@thegamers.net http://wbr.thegamers.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts